[PD-dev] updating 'puredata' package to 0.42.5

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Nov 21, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:02:14AM +0000, Chris McCormick wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 01:24:18PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Chris McCormick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but if this is a question of
>>>> being able to apt-get install vanilla Pd under Debian GNU/Linux, I
>>>> would like to have that option rather than only having the option  
>>>> to
>>>> install pd-extended.
>>>
>>> What's in pd-vanilla, that you can't have by installing pd- 
>>> extended ?
>>
>> Your question is the wrong way around. I can't answer it like that  
>> because it
>> contains built in assumptions which don't make sense to me.
>
> Hi!
>
> Ok, I'll answer your question as if you'd asked it like this: "Why  
> would you
> like the option of running pd-vanilla?" Rather than the front-loaded  
> question
> you asked me.
>
> 1. Pd is minimal whilst pd-extended is maximal. Hans has stated on  
> list that he
> would like to include as many externals as possible in the  
> distribution. I
> think this is a bad architectural decision which leads to complexity  
> and bugs.
> I would rather run something which has an architecture I agree with.

Just like to throw in my two cents since I am mentioned by name ;)  I  
may have said that years ago, but that is definitely no longer the  
case and hasn't been for years.  We really should be working towards a  
common, simple library format so we don't need to include so much  
stuff in a single package.

> 2. pd-extended has not yet earned my trust as a software project. I  
> have been
> using Pd for a few years, and it has earned my trust. There are many  
> things
> which Miller has not implemented which I wish he had, but there are  
> far fewer
> things that he has implemented which I wish he hadn't.

If you do find problems please do let us know.

> 3. Hans is the leader of the pd-extended project, and I disagree  
> with many of
> his technical decisions. I don't trust him to make technical  
> decisions as much
> as I trust Miller. This may be outweiged down the track by  
> evolutionary
> pressure, since pd-extended will be subjected to a lot more pressure  
> than Pd
> will be, because Pd basically has a sole maintainer. For me this is  
> the biggest
> thing going for pd-extended - it is properly exposed to the  
> evolutionary
> pressures of the Free Software community.

Funny, I never wanted to be a leader of this, I'd much prefer it if  
more people were involved in the work and the decision making.  And  
thankfully, I'm not the only one who works on it.  Others have  
contributed a lot as well.

> 4. I often want to run Pd on constrained devices and in constrained  
> places.
> Getting it to do so is hard enough without the bloat that pd-extended
> experiences. What if I want to apt-get install Pd onto my router/ 
> gumstix/phone
> with an ARM based processor with 8MB of flash memory?

I often to that as well.  You should see how many python libraries are  
available for embedded devices.  Many many.  Just because a library is  
sitting there on the disk doesn't mean you have to use it.  But it  
does meant that you _can_ use it.

All that said, I like the forkiness of Pd and think its a strength.  I  
don't think everyone should use Pd-extended, or whatever.  Its kind of  
ironic maybe that this thread started with me talking about doing pd- 
vanilla maintenance :).

.hc

> Of course, Free and Open Source Software is also about choice, and  
> so it's
> always good to give users the choices they would like. I shouldn't  
> even have to
> justify my own preference for running pd-vanilla to you, beyond  
> saying "having
> pd-vanilla is a useful feature for me, and I would appreciate it if  
> it was
> available to me as a choice."
>
> "It works for me," is the worst kind of programmer mentality.
>
> Chris.
>
> -------------------
> http://mccormick.cx
>
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