<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Two things:<br><br><span></span><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>1) the lack of "$0" in messages is only a symptom of a bigger problem with scope of binding symbols in Pd. I'd rather see new objects (or wrapper objects) that handle scope in a sensible manner which doesn't require typing "$0-" at all. There's already no need for $0 in your preset_hub/node design. Why not extend the hub/node idea and get rid of the need for $0 completely?</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>[hub]/[node] = [send]/[receive]</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>[hub~]/[node~] = [throw~]/[catch~]</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">etc.<br><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;
font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">2) On a more superficial note, isn't the problem that Pd doesn't store stray "\n" characters in message boxes? The only time I can think of when one would have a real desire for $0 in a message box is when initializing a bunch of receivers:</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">[; $0-foo 1;</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;">$0-bar 2;</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">$0-flub 3;(</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">But if the box stored "\n" you could get the same clean format with commas:</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">[foo 1,</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">bar 2,</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">flub 3(</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">|</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">[zerofy-me] <- add a "$0-" to the selector<br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;">| |<br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">[send]</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">No ugly zeros, no leading semi-colon, everybody wins!<br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;
font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>-Jonathan<br></span></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div style="display: block;" class="yahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 2:27 AM, Ivica Bukvic <ico@vt.edu> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv7050495279"><div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
On Sep 10, 2014 1:17 AM, "Chris McCormick" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chris@mccormick.cx" target="_blank" href="mailto:chris@mccormick.cx">chris@mccormick.cx</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Hi Ivica,<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> On 10/09/14 04:19, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:<br clear="none">
> > Yet, I wonder why message shouldn't be able to pre-parse $0 into a valid<br clear="none">
> > dollarzero (canvas instance), when there will never be a message one<br clear="none">
> ><br clear="none">
> > Thoughts?<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> There has been a lot of discussion regarding this over the years which<br clear="none">
> might be good to read to get an idea on the different<br clear="none">
> philosophical/language design issues:<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.puredata.general/56365">http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.puredata.general/56365</a>></div>
<div dir="ltr">Thanks, Chris, for bringing this to my attention. Since one of Miller's core ideas behind pd is absolute backwards compatibility, most of alternatives suggested in that thread would cause unacceptable breakage with backwards compatibility or a really kludge workaround for the support of legacy patches. It seems to me Phil really has a point I completely agree with. FWIW, I am looking to implement this in pd-l2ork and as soon as I get a better idea about the recursion Miller mentioned and how to circumvent it, it should find its way into pd-l2ork's source.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Best,</div>
<div class="yiv7050495279yqt2571924906" id="yiv7050495279yqtfd42895"><div dir="ltr">Ico<br clear="none"></div>
<div dir="ltr">><br clear="none">
> Cheers,<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Chris.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> --<br clear="none">
> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://mccormick.cx/">http://mccormick.cx/</a><br clear="none">
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