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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/11/2014 1:05 PM, Jonathan Wilkes
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1410455124.77454.YahooMailNeo@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
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<div><span>Yes I agree the two ideas may coexist. But I also
think that if the two were to coexist, $0 in message boxes
would pale in comparison in terms of usability.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><span>Hub/node: make a hub on a canvas. Now every
node you create on that canvas or subcanvas belongs to that
hub. If you need more than one, give them names.<br>
</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><span>$0: prepend a string with this to make a
special name that is unique to a canvas and its subpatches
(but not abstractions created in either). The dollarsign
variable will be filled in at the time the patch is created,
and given a unique value in the running Pd instance. If you
want a name inside an abstraction to share the $0 with its
parent, just send $0 as an abstraction argument, then use
the corresponding argument number inside the abstraction to
retrieve the value of the parent $0.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><span>I mean, if you can solve $0 in message boxes in
a few hours or so then go ahead and do it. But if it brings
up any </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Not hours, but rather minutes. That is, unless I am missing
something... Still not sure, if I fully understood Miller's
explanation (see my response).<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1410455124.77454.YahooMailNeo@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><span>issues that require workarounds I think the
time would be better spent on building out more hub/node
infrastructure. (And they don't necessarily need to have
that name, I'm just using it as a placeholder.)</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><span>Btw-- I just heard yesterday from someone using
Max/MSP about something like using a "#0-" prefixes to hack
local scope for receive symbols. Is this still the case
there, too?</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Very much so.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1410455124.77454.YahooMailNeo@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><span>-Jonathan<br>
</span></div>
<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br>
<br>
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<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On
Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:08 PM, Ivica Bukvic
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu"><ico@vt.edu></a> wrote:<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="y_msg_container">
<div id="yiv8112900730">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">What about for instance arrays that
should maintain scope inside a specific
abstraction so that you can have multiple
independent abstractions? $0 is very useful IMHO
and is also necessary to stay due to backwards
compatibility concerns. Therefore, I think the
discussion should be limited to a simple yes or no
for $0 substitution inside a message as it does
not introduce a myriad of other questions.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Having message recognize it as such
(the code already seeks to resolve dollarzero but
fails because the canvas was not set as current
which should be a simple addition of a couple of
lines of code) makes sense even if the only
benefit is not having to do [$0] or what you are
suggesting, namely [zerofy-me]. It is also worth
noting that there is no reason why the two could
not coexist.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Yet, as it stands right now, $0,
contrary to what has been already said in both
threads on this topic, is an anomaly inside a
message box and behaves like nothing else anywhere
else in the code and as such this should be a
no-brainer fix, just like having a trigger with
static values, like [t 0 f 1] for opening a gate,
passing a value, and then immediately closing it.
This is what pd-l2ork does (and so does Max). So,
rather than putting redundant messages with static
values below the [t b] outlet, one object solves
it all. To me this is the same situation where
message can do it all, and if that makes my
patching quicker, I am all for it.</div>
<div class="yiv8112900730yqt8227967675"
id="yiv8112900730yqt07553">
<div class="yiv8112900730gmail_quote">On Sep 10,
2014 12:48 PM, "Jonathan Wilkes" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href=""
class="removed-link" rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:jancsika@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">jancsika@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv8112900730gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div
style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">Two
things:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<span></span>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>1)
the lack of "$0" in messages is only a
symptom of a bigger problem with scope
of binding symbols in Pd. I'd rather
see new objects (or wrapper objects)
that handle scope in a sensible manner
which doesn't require typing "$0-" at
all. There's already no need for $0
in your preset_hub/node design. Why
not extend the hub/node idea and get
rid of the need for $0 completely?</span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
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sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
clear="none">
<span></span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>[hub]/[node]
= [send]/[receive]</span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>[hub~]/[node~]
= [throw~]/[catch~]</span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">etc.<br
clear="none">
<span></span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">2)
On a more superficial note, isn't the
problem that Pd doesn't store stray "\n"
characters in message boxes? The only
time I can think of when one would have
a real desire for $0 in a message box is
when initializing a bunch of receivers:</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">[;
$0-foo 1;</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">$0-bar
2;</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">$0-flub
3;(</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">But
if the box stored "\n" you could get the
same clean format with commas:</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">[foo
1,</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">bar
2,</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">flub
3(</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">|</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">[zerofy-me]
<- add a "$0-" to the selector<br
clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">|
|<br clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">[send]</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">No
ugly zeros, no leading semi-colon,
everybody wins!<br clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
clear="none">
<span></span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>-Jonathan<br
clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="display:block;">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,
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Lucida Grande,
sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,
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<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial">
On Wednesday, September 10, 2014
2:27 AM, Ivica Bukvic <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href=""
class="removed-link"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu"
target="_blank">ico@vt.edu</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<br clear="none">
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<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><br
clear="none">
On Sep 10, 2014 1:17 AM,
"Chris McCormick" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href=""
class="removed-link"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:chris@mccormick.cx"
target="_blank">chris@mccormick.cx</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Hi Ivica,<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> On 10/09/14 04:19,
Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:<br
clear="none">
> > Yet, I wonder why
message shouldn't be able to
pre-parse $0 into a valid<br
clear="none">
> > dollarzero (canvas
instance), when there will
never be a message one<br
clear="none">
> ><br clear="none">
> > Thoughts?<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> There has been a lot of
discussion regarding this
over the years which<br
clear="none">
> might be good to read
to get an idea on the
different<br clear="none">
> philosophical/language
design issues:<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href=""
class="removed-link"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
target="_blank">http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.puredata.general/56365</a>></div>
<div dir="ltr">Thanks, Chris,
for bringing this to my
attention. Since one of
Miller's core ideas behind
pd is absolute backwards
compatibility, most of
alternatives suggested in
that thread would cause
unacceptable breakage with
backwards compatibility or a
really kludge workaround for
the support of legacy
patches. It seems to me Phil
really has a point I
completely agree with. FWIW,
I am looking to implement
this in pd-l2ork and as soon
as I get a better idea about
the recursion Miller
mentioned and how to
circumvent it, it should
find its way into pd-l2ork's
source.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Best,</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Ico<br
clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">><br
clear="none">
> Cheers,<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Chris.<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> --<br clear="none">
> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href=""
class="removed-link"
rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
target="_blank">http://mccormick.cx/</a><br
clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div>_______________________________________________<br
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
Associate Professor
Computer Music
ICAT Senior Fellow
DISIS, L2Ork
Virginia Tech
School of Performing Arts – 0141
Blacksburg, VA 24061
(540) 231-6139
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.performingarts.vt.edu">www.performingarts.vt.edu</a>
disis.music.vt.edu
l2ork.music.vt.edu</pre>
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