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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/11/2014 1:05 PM, Jonathan Wilkes
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:1410455124.77454.YahooMailNeo@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
      type="cite">
      <div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
        font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
        Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
        <div><span>Yes I agree the two ideas may coexist.  But I also
            think that if the two were to coexist, $0 in message boxes
            would pale in comparison in terms of usability.</span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><br>
          <span></span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><span>Hub/node: make a hub on a canvas.  Now every
            node you create on that canvas or subcanvas belongs to that
            hub.  If you need more than one, give them names.<br>
          </span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><br>
          <span></span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><span>$0: prepend a string with this to make a
            special name that is unique to a canvas and its subpatches
            (but not abstractions created in either).  The dollarsign
            variable will be filled in at the time the patch is created,
            and given a unique value in the running Pd instance.  If you
            want a name inside an abstraction to share the $0 with its
            parent, just send $0 as an abstraction argument, then use
            the corresponding argument number inside the abstraction to
            retrieve the value of the parent $0.</span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><br>
          <span></span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><span>I mean, if you can solve $0 in message boxes in
            a few hours or so then go ahead and do it.  But if it brings
            up any </span></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Not hours, but rather minutes. That is, unless I am missing
    something... Still not sure, if I fully understood Miller's
    explanation (see my response).<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:1410455124.77454.YahooMailNeo@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
      type="cite">
      <div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
        font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
        Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><span>issues that require workarounds I think the
            time would be better spent on building out more hub/node
            infrastructure.  (And they don't necessarily need to have
            that name, I'm just using it as a placeholder.)</span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><br>
          <span></span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><span>Btw-- I just heard yesterday from someone using
            Max/MSP about something like using a "#0-" prefixes to hack
            local scope for receive symbols.  Is this still the case
            there, too?</span></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Very much so.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:1410455124.77454.YahooMailNeo@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
      type="cite">
      <div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
        font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
        Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><br>
          <span></span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
          HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
          Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
          normal;"><span>-Jonathan<br>
          </span></div>
        <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div style="display: block;" class="yahoo_quoted">
          <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue,
            Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size:
            12pt;">
            <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue,
              Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size:
              12pt;">
              <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On
                  Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:08 PM, Ivica Bukvic
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu"><ico@vt.edu></a> wrote:<br>
                </font> </div>
              <br>
              <br>
              <div class="y_msg_container">
                <div id="yiv8112900730">
                  <div>
                    <div dir="ltr">What about for instance arrays that
                      should maintain scope inside a specific
                      abstraction so that you can have multiple
                      independent abstractions? $0 is very useful IMHO
                      and is also necessary to stay due to backwards
                      compatibility concerns. Therefore, I think the
                      discussion should be limited to a simple yes or no
                      for $0 substitution inside a message as it does
                      not introduce a myriad of other questions.</div>
                    <div dir="ltr">Having message recognize it as such
                      (the code already seeks to resolve dollarzero but
                      fails because the canvas was not set as current
                      which should be a simple addition of a couple of
                      lines of code) makes sense even if the only
                      benefit is not having to do [$0] or what you are
                      suggesting, namely [zerofy-me]. It is also worth
                      noting that there is no reason why the two could
                      not coexist.</div>
                    <div dir="ltr">Yet, as it stands right now, $0,
                      contrary to what has been already said in both
                      threads on this topic, is an anomaly inside a
                      message box and behaves like nothing else anywhere
                      else in the code and as such this should be a
                      no-brainer fix, just like having a trigger with
                      static values, like [t 0 f 1] for opening a gate,
                      passing a value, and then immediately closing it.
                      This is what pd-l2ork does (and so does Max). So,
                      rather than putting redundant messages with static
                      values below the [t b] outlet, one object solves
                      it all. To me this is the same situation where
                      message can do it all, and if that makes my
                      patching quicker, I am all for it.</div>
                    <div class="yiv8112900730yqt8227967675"
                      id="yiv8112900730yqt07553">
                      <div class="yiv8112900730gmail_quote">On Sep 10,
                        2014 12:48 PM, "Jonathan Wilkes" <<a
                          moz-do-not-send="true" href=""
                          class="removed-link" rel="nofollow"
                          shape="rect"
                          ymailto="mailto:jancsika@yahoo.com"
                          target="_blank">jancsika@yahoo.com</a>>
                        wrote:<br clear="none">
                        <blockquote class="yiv8112900730gmail_quote"
                          style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                          solid;padding-left:1ex;">
                          <div>
                            <div
                              style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                              Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                              Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">Two
                              things:<br clear="none">
                              <br clear="none">
                              <span></span>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>1)
                                  the lack of "$0" in messages is only a
                                  symptom of a bigger problem with scope
                                  of binding symbols in Pd.  I'd rather
                                  see new objects (or wrapper objects)
                                  that handle scope in a sensible manner
                                  which doesn't require typing "$0-" at
                                  all.  There's already no need for $0
                                  in your preset_hub/node design.  Why
                                  not extend the hub/node idea and get
                                  rid of the need for $0 completely?</span></div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
                                  clear="none">
                                <span></span></div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>[hub]/[node]
                                  = [send]/[receive]</span></div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>[hub~]/[node~]
                                  = [throw~]/[catch~]</span></div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">etc.<br
                                  clear="none">
                                <span></span></div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
                                  clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">2)
                                On a more superficial note, isn't the
                                problem that Pd doesn't store stray "\n"
                                characters in message boxes?  The only
                                time I can think of when one would have
                                a real desire for $0 in a message box is
                                when initializing a bunch of receivers:</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
                                  clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">[;
                                $0-foo 1;</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">$0-bar
                                2;</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">$0-flub
                                3;(</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
                                  clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">But
                                if the box stored "\n" you could get the
                                same clean format with commas:</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">[foo
                                1,</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">bar
                                2,</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">flub
                                3(</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">|</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">[zerofy-me]
                                <- add a "$0-" to the selector<br
                                  clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">|       
                                |<br clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">[send]</div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
                                  clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">No
                                ugly zeros, no leading semi-colon,
                                everybody wins!<br clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br
                                  clear="none">
                                <span></span></div>
                              <div
                                style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida
                                Grande,
                                sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>-Jonathan<br
                                    clear="none">
                                </span></div>
                              <div><br clear="none">
                                <br clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div style="display:block;">
                                <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                  Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
                                  Lucida Grande,
                                  sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
                                  <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,
                                    Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
                                    Lucida Grande,
                                    sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
                                    <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial">
                                        On Wednesday, September 10, 2014
                                        2:27 AM, Ivica Bukvic <<a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true" href=""
                                          class="removed-link"
                                          rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
                                          ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu"
                                          target="_blank">ico@vt.edu</a>>
                                        wrote:<br clear="none">
                                      </font> </div>
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div dir="ltr"><br
                                              clear="none">
                                            On Sep 10, 2014 1:17 AM,
                                            "Chris McCormick" <<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href=""
                                              class="removed-link"
                                              rel="nofollow"
                                              shape="rect"
                                              ymailto="mailto:chris@mccormick.cx"
                                              target="_blank">chris@mccormick.cx</a>>
                                            wrote:<br clear="none">
                                            ><br clear="none">
                                            > Hi Ivica,<br
                                              clear="none">
                                            ><br clear="none">
                                            > On 10/09/14 04:19,
                                            Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:<br
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                                            > > Yet, I wonder why
                                            message shouldn't be able to
                                            pre-parse $0 into a valid<br
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                                            > > dollarzero (canvas
                                            instance), when there will
                                            never be a message one<br
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                                            > ><br clear="none">
                                            > > Thoughts?<br
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                                            ><br clear="none">
                                            > There has been a lot of
                                            discussion regarding this
                                            over the years which<br
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                                            > might be good to read
                                            to get an idea on the
                                            different<br clear="none">
                                            > philosophical/language
                                            design issues:<br
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                                            ><br clear="none">
                                            > <<a
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                                              target="_blank">http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.puredata.general/56365</a>></div>
                                          <div dir="ltr">Thanks, Chris,
                                            for bringing this to my
                                            attention. Since one of
                                            Miller's core ideas behind
                                            pd is absolute backwards
                                            compatibility, most of
                                            alternatives suggested in
                                            that thread would cause
                                            unacceptable breakage with
                                            backwards compatibility or a
                                            really kludge workaround for
                                            the support of legacy
                                            patches. It seems to me Phil
                                            really has a point I
                                            completely agree with. FWIW,
                                            I am looking to implement
                                            this in pd-l2ork and as soon
                                            as I get a better idea about
                                            the recursion Miller
                                            mentioned and how to
                                            circumvent it, it should
                                            find its way into pd-l2ork's
                                            source.</div>
                                          <div dir="ltr">Best,</div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div dir="ltr">Ico<br
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                                            </div>
                                            <div dir="ltr">><br
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                                              > Cheers,<br
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                                              ><br clear="none">
                                              > Chris.<br
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                                              ><br clear="none">
                                              > --<br clear="none">
                                              > <a
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                                                target="_blank">http://mccormick.cx/</a><br
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                                      <div>_______________________________________________<br
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                        </blockquote>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
Associate Professor
Computer Music
ICAT Senior Fellow
DISIS, L2Ork
Virginia Tech
School of Performing Arts – 0141
Blacksburg, VA 24061
(540) 231-6139
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.performingarts.vt.edu">www.performingarts.vt.edu</a>
disis.music.vt.edu
l2ork.music.vt.edu</pre>
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