<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yiv9595220105"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18920"><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18919"><div><span></span></div> <br clear="none"><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918">Btw-- could you make Gem a priority? It appears it's already in git. And since it's fairly self-contained migrating it doesn't come with all the issues of (dis)organization that splitting up Pd-extended svn does.</div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918"><br></div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918" dir="ltr">Also-- what do we do with the binaries that are currently on Sourceforge?</div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918" dir="ltr">Can we eventually delete them? Can we "release" another binary that just</div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918" dir="ltr">prints out a warning that this is no longer the official Pd repository?</div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918" dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918" dir="ltr">If the most recent Pd-extended binary on Sourceforge gets forgotten over the next 10 years, it will get bundled with malware, users will download it, and those users will be harmed.</div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918" dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918" dir="ltr">-Jonathan</div><div class="yiv9595220105qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1438267513687_18918" dir="ltr"><br></div></div></div></div><div class=".yiv9595220105yahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv9595220105yqt1485776611" id="yiv9595220105yqtfd37437"><div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> On Thursday, July 30, 2015 5:07 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig@iem.at> wrote:<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv9595220105y_msg_container">On 07/08/15 04:27, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-dev wrote:<br clear="none">> I now have a gitlab instance up and running, hosted by Oregan State<br clear="none">> University Open Source Labs.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> I'm currently using it for the GUI port, but I set it up specifically to<br clear="none">> migrate away from Sourceforge (as well as not having<br clear="none">> to rely on yet another commercial service with the same business model).<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Support was nice enough to help me set up a cert for logging in over<br clear="none">> https. That's just a stop-gap-- something like<br clear="none">> git.puredata.info or gitlab.puredata.info would be preferable. (That<br clear="none">> would require an additional cert for the subdomain,<br clear="none">> something which startssl doesn't allow.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">i've been pondering about all this for long, and the recent outage of<br clear="none">sourceforge gave more pressure to it.<br clear="none">sf is back up again, so we now have at least a recent enought backup of<br clear="none">the entire tree :-).<br clear="none"><br clear="none">thanks jonathan for taking the initiative.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">my personal opinion on all this is:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">#1 we should move to a decentralized VCS, namely git<br clear="none">#2 we should make use of the decentralized nature of such a VCS<br clear="none">#3 for this we need a history preserving transition plan<br clear="none">#4 we also would need a general transition plan<br clear="none"><br clear="none">some notes:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">ad #1<br clear="none">i'm mainly suggesting git as this is currently (still) all the hype,<br clear="none">(almost) everybody i work with is using it; and Pd-vanilla and<br clear="none">Pd-extended and Pd-l2ork already switched to it, so it seems that<br clear="none">natural choice.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">ad #3<br clear="none">i really would like to split that huge repository into small projects<br clear="none">(mainly: per-library).<br clear="none">i've already started working on this on [1], which is nothing much to<br clear="none">show yet, but in the end it should document the process and provide a<br clear="none">way to re-play the conversion.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">i currently think that it's insane to convert the entire repository.<br clear="none">there is way too much cruft in there, starting from CVS-tags meant for<br clear="none">simple externals but covering the entire tree. there is about an<br clear="none">unknownbyte of 3rd party libraries included in /sources, each of them<br clear="none">required by only a few externals. there are a number of externals that<br clear="none">have seen their EOL a while ago and won't be touched in the foreseeable<br clear="none">future. some have been deleted from the SVN.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">i see little gain in converting all those to git.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">#4<br clear="none">ah yes; i haven't thought about that too much yet.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">one problem i see is that there are still a number of externals using<br clear="none">the externals/Makefile for building rather than being self-contained<br clear="none">(e.g. using the template/Makefile; or katja's pd-lib-builder)<br clear="none">but hey, this could be *the* opportunity to push the use of pdlibbuilder!<br clear="none"><br clear="none">a switch will obviously break a number of things, like the auto-builds<br clear="none">and the entirety of the pd-extended system.<br clear="none">i don't think that pd-extended as a whole package should be migrated (in<br clear="none">a history preserving fashion, using automated tools to extract from the<br clear="none">svn repo): instead it should be re-setup (if needed), using<br clear="none">git-submodules and the like.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">then finally, this would require a coordinated switch with freezing the<br clear="none">svn (again, like back in the cvs2svn days)<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">#2<br clear="none">so where to host it?<br clear="none">as much as i welcome jonathan's offer, i'm not seeing clear what this<br clear="none">means in terms of long-term availability.<br clear="none">OSUOSLs track record [2] is impressive, but as i haven't worked with<br clear="none">them yet, i don't know how this will evolve over the years.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">in my experience, when it comes to (smallish, like Pd) FLOSS projects,<br clear="none">if hosting is done by a non-commercial institution, then the long-term<br clear="none">support usually depends on humans from the community, who actually run<br clear="none">the project (in practice i find it most often to be single persons<br clear="none">rather than groups).<br clear="none">as soon as the humans in charge are leaving the project (finished their<br clear="none">studies; got kids; pissed off by the way the community works; ...) those<br clear="none">services usually die away.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">with "long-term" i'm talking about >>10 years.<br clear="none">i still remember the pdpedia, which shone bright and was gone rather<br clear="none">soon. i would prefer this wouldn't happen to the sources.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">these might all be non-issues with OSUOSL, but i simply cannot tell.<br clear="none">(i have to admit that only today i found the time to skim through the<br clear="none">hosted projects, and it *is* impressive).<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">in any case, i thought that it might be better to really allow the devs<br clear="none">themselves to pick *any* hoster they prefer, be it your own gitlab<br clear="none">instance, OSUOSL, github, or even sf.<br clear="none">in that case, git.puredata.info might be simply a portal to the various<br clear="none">git-servers.<br clear="none">e.g. providing a central webpage that lists all those repositories,<br clear="none">wherever they are.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">migratory repositories:<br clear="none">additionally we could do some proxying, so that the user doesn't need to<br clear="none">track the current authoritative git-server for a given repository (the<br clear="none">repo admin would need to tell the proxy system when they have moved the<br clear="none">repo; but all the URLs would stay the same from the user perspective).<br clear="none">e.g. you can currently use [3] to clone deken from github; in a year it<br clear="none">might pull from OSUOSL.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">mfgasdr<br clear="none">IOhannes<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">[1] <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://github.com/umlaeute/pd-svn2git">https://github.com/umlaeute/pd-svn2git</a><br clear="none">[2] <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://osuosl.org/communities">http://osuosl.org/communities</a><br clear="none">[3] <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://git.puredata.info/proxy/pure-data/deken">http://git.puredata.info/proxy/pure-data/deken</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Pd-dev mailing list<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-dev@lists.iem.at" target="_blank" href="mailto:Pd-dev@lists.iem.at">Pd-dev@lists.iem.at</a><br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div> </div></div><div class="yiv9595220105yqt1485776611" id="yiv9595220105yqtfd30270"> </div></div><div class="yiv9595220105yqt1485776611" id="yiv9595220105yqtfd98591"> </div></div></div></body></html>