<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
</head>
<body>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite">As per the usual Apple grumbling I will
say "nobody is forcing people to buy an Apple product."</blockquote>
True from a user's perspective. For open source cross-platform
developers the story is a bit different.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Supporting is another story, but now there
are people like me to help and I don't often feel so welcome
when the platform I'm explicitly contributing a good amount of
time toward is often bashed by people who don't prefer to use
it.</blockquote>
As a Windoze dev I can relate ;-) Don't take the occasional Apple
bashing personally. Your work is highly appreciated!<br>
<blockquote type="cite">If support is a pain, then those
institutions relying on Macs, of which there are many, could
maybe kick back some development support in some way or even a
build machine or two...</blockquote>
Yes!<br>
</p>
<p>Christof<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24.06.2020 16:00, Dan Wilcox wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:55B9CF9D-A3D9-4828-87C2-C76ACC457BBC@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jun 24, 2020, at 12:00 PM, <a
href="mailto:pd-dev-request@lists.iem.at" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">pd-dev-request@lists.iem.at</a>
wrote:</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">so running on all</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">architectures
ever supported by OSX (modulo system libraries...).</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>To be pedantic, it has been officially "macOS" for some
years now. The upcoming version will be 11.0, so "OS X" will
no longer be relevant anyway.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">why not just add arm64 to that list?</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<div>I was only musing that the "Universal 2" format *might*
be new. I haven't read any of the details about it yet.
Hopefully it's the same thing with just the new
architecture.</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">so initially, I was going to rebuke
the idea oft a d_fat2 format.</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">apple's
labelling as "Universal 2" is a bit concerning though...</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">anyhow,
I don't really see why apple should make a 2nd universal
format.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">iirc,
"fat" is a technology from NextStep, so its well aged, and
has</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">proven
itself.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">this of
course is no reason to not drop it.</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I mentioned that it *might* be different as there was some
talk about Rosetta 2 and the other emulation/virtualization
layers having some sort of way to optimize existing binaries
for the different architecture, which led me to think that
they might rework the "fat" approach with some additions or
changes to facilitate this and/or lay the groundwork for the
next 10-20 years.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>OTOH I also cannot imagine them changing something as
fundamental as this unless it's *really* necessary.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">more important: can you (well: they)
make money with a new format?</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">i'm
having a hard time here to imagine how (but then: i'm not
very good</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">in
imagining how to make money in general).</span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>(The following is not to IOhannes in particular.)</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>As per the usual Apple grumbling I will say "nobody is
forcing people to buy an Apple product." Supporting is another
story, but now there are people like me to help and I don't
often feel so welcome when the platform I'm explicitly
contributing a good amount of time toward is often bashed by
people who don't prefer to use it. If support is a pain, then
those institutions relying on Macs, of which there are many,
could maybe kick back some development support in some way or
even a build machine or two...</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">i don't think there are still enough
ppc users left for apple to care</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">about
them.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">thinkgs
might be different with i386 though.</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The last 32-bit only Intel Macs are from the late 00s, so
there are some but their numbers are probably lower than you
may think. There are probably fewer 32-bit Intel Macs in use
now than ppc I bet, at least as far as Pd is concerned.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">however, i guess the biggest issue
is for the developers it's getting</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">really
hard to create fat binaries that cover more architectures
than</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">x86_64
and i-arm64.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">that's
because there's no reasonable toolchains available that
allow you</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to do
so.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Right. I imagine we are looking at a minimum of needing the
Xcode12 developer tools (ie. compiler chain), without the
Xcode UI.</div>
</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">so the only way to produce fat
binaries (that include mor ethan x86_&4</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">and
amd64) is to have multiple build systems (parts of them
unsupported</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">by now)
and combine the artifacts into a single binary in a second
step.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none;" class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
I think it's better to have separate builds, which we already
have. It's already hard enough, especially concerning Tcl/Tk
frameworks, that I do not think making "one app bundle to rule
them all" is even practical... feasible perhaps, but not
sustainable.</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">that sounds like a big enough hurdle
to be a rather plump nudge for most</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">applications
to support only "recent" architecture. no need to invent a</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"
class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">new
format.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;">--------</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;">Dan Wilcox</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;"><a href="http://twitter.com/danomatika" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">@danomatika</a></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;"><a href="http://danomatika.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">danomatika.com</a></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;"><a href="http://robotcowboy.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">robotcowboy.com</a></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Pd-dev mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Pd-dev@lists.iem.at">Pd-dev@lists.iem.at</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev">https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>