[PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Alicia Byer]

Hi everybody,

Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I 
don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties 
also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and 
attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not 
want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's 
just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two 
women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real 
"jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I 
guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to 
learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't 
be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 
2007!!! Not the stone age.

Anyway, thanks everybody.

-Alicia

pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
>> hey ho
>>     
>
> hi roman
>
>   
>> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
>> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
>> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
>> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
>> point.
>>     
>
> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism
> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we
> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
>
> for example this
> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
>
> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
> deeper degree in the conversation.
> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was followed by a
> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
>
> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some
> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed
> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in
> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
>
> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem
> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until
> the end ;)
>
>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
>   
>> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
>> couldn't be established.
>>     
>
> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to
> propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
> argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
> mountains)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
>
> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is
> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we
> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the
> world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
> this.
> and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like
> some good internet radio
>
> http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
>
> I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
> outside the list:
>
> - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
> yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
> that  you don't have to do that.
>
> -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual
> artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that
> women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
>
> -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
>
> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
>
> but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that
> participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep
> on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
>
> it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that
> would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around
> why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
>
>
> Alejandra
>
>
>
>   
>> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
>>     
>>>> yves,
>>>> I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
>>>>         
>>> (maybe
>>>       
>>>> you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
>>>>         
>>> hi David and all,
>>> I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some
>>> examples
>>> of greasy jokes:
>>>       
>> yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this
>> could be a basis for a real discussion.
>>
>>     
>>> From:   	João Miguel Pais <jmmmpais at googlemail.com>
>>> Date:   	Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
>>>
>>> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
>>> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
>>> [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
>>> humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
>>>       
>> i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the
>> first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult
>> feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt,
>> that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
>> provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or
>> whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
>> succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the
>> list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in
>> order to question the ongoing discussion.
>>
>> accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do
>> not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless
>> of the intention.
>>
>>     
>>> I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts
>>> is
>>> just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
>>>       
>> i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling
>> someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
>>
>> roman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>     
>
>
>
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