[PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

Hans-Christoph Steiner hans at eds.org
Wed Oct 17 21:02:29 CEST 2007

I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who  
are deliberately trying to exclude people.  There are a wide range of  
cultures involved in this list, and some things that are not a big  
deal in some places are quite offensive in others.  And email is  
never a good medium for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in- 
cheek, sarcasm, etc.

So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when  
posting.  I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this  
list in the past.  In California (where I grew up), men and women,  
feminists and not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not  
just males.  Others read that as "hey men", which is certainly not  
what I meant to say...


On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

> You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this  
> list.  Now it seems that this thread is actually getting  
> somewhere.  I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the  
> depths it had fallen to.
> I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho  
> programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last  
> bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at  
> least 20% female, not so in the computer music world.  As someone  
> who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I  
> could do to change that.  So far I haven't found an answer, but I  
> am always open to suggestions.
> It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A  
> friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering  
> department since she'd always wanted to make things.  She was one  
> of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and  
> mocked because she was a woman.  Needless to say, she changed  
> departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer.   
> Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well.
> .hc
> On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:
>> Hi everybody,
>> Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I
>> don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties
>> also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and
>> attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make  
>> me not
>> want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out.  
>> It's
>> just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two
>> women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be  
>> a real
>> "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I
>> guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to
>> learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women  
>> can't
>> be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's
>> 2007!!! Not the stone age.
>> Anyway, thanks everybody.
>> -Alicia
>> pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
>>>> hey ho
>>> hi roman
>>>> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread  
>>>> in a
>>>> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered  
>>>> through
>>>> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at  
>>>> all to
>>>> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming  
>>>> to a
>>>> point.
>>> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic  
>>> of sexism
>>> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there.  
>>> gender, we
>>> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
>>> for example this
>>> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
>>> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
>>> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
>>> deeper degree in the conversation.
>>> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was  
>>> followed by a
>>> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
>>> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
>>> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to  
>>> mention some
>>> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
>>> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self  
>>> employed
>>> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are  
>>> not
>>> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of  
>>> technology in
>>> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
>>> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to  
>>> answer it!.
>>> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last  
>>> problem
>>> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that  
>>> thread until
>>> the end ;)
>>>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
>>>> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
>>>> couldn't be established.
>>> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I  
>>> wanted to
>>> propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
>>> argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
>>> mountains)
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
>>> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total  
>>> discredit, is
>>> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not  
>>> equal and we
>>> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas  
>>> of the
>>> world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is  
>>> related to
>>> this.
>>> and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would  
>>> like
>>> some good internet radio
>>> http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
>>> I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any  
>>> particular
>>> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
>>> outside the list:
>>> - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an  
>>> external, ah
>>> yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well  
>>> Yves can do
>>> that  you don't have to do that.
>>> -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the  
>>> visual
>>> artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this  
>>> prejudice that
>>> women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
>>> -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat  
>>> meeting (!)
>>> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't  
>>> do sound
>>> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of  
>>> visuals
>>> but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people  
>>> that
>>> participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects  
>>> to keep
>>> on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
>>> it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but  
>>> yes that
>>> would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and  
>>> ask around
>>> why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
>>> Alejandra
>>>> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
>>>>>> yves,
>>>>>> I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you  
>>>>>> describe
>>>>> (maybe
>>>>>> you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
>>>>> hi David and all,
>>>>> I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some
>>>>> examples
>>>>> of greasy jokes:
>>>> yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think,  
>>>> this
>>>> could be a basis for a real discussion.
>>>>> From:   	João Miguel Pais <jmmmpais at googlemail.com>
>>>>> Date:   	Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
>>>>> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a  
>>>>> lightbulb? 2:
>>>>> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
>>>>> [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least  
>>>>> it's a
>>>>> humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last  
>>>>> weeks]
>>>> i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that  
>>>> in the
>>>> first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that  
>>>> insult
>>>> feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others,  
>>>> felt,
>>>> that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
>>>> provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke  
>>>> (or
>>>> whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
>>>> succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the
>>>> list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic  
>>>> 'sexism' in
>>>> order to question the ongoing discussion.
>>>> accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case,  
>>>> though i do
>>>> not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list,  
>>>> regardless
>>>> of the intention.
>>>>> I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about  
>>>>> the facts
>>>>> is
>>>>> just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
>>>> i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is  
>>>> troubling
>>>> someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
>>>> roman
>>>> ___________________________________________________________
>>>> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen  
>>>> Yahoo! Mail:
>>>> http://mail.yahoo.de
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>                             kill your television


Access to computers should be unlimited and total.  - the hacker ethic

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