[PD] Very large patches unstable?
Hans-Christoph Steiner
hans at at.or.at
Wed Dec 2 17:56:32 CET 2009
Here's a friendly suggestion, instead of spending time writing giant
emails, spend that time trying to isolate the bugs that you are
complaining about. If you can make a pd patch that reproduces a bug
every time, then that is usually 90% of the work needed to get it
fixed. I'm very unlikely to read really long emails, there is just
too much email in the world these days, but I read every single bug
report, and try almost all patch submitted to the trackers. If I have
a Pd patch that shows me the problem, then I am very likely to try to
fix it.
.hc
On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:36 AM, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
> Let's suppose 'I' am the user and 'you' are the developer, which I
> guess
> is partially true sometimes.
>
> Let's also say what should be implicit, that we are discussing for the
> sake of exchanging ideas, and that nobody is criticising the work of
> nobody, and also that the fact of replying in a somewhat 'polemic'
> tone
> doesn't mean one feels offended but only that the debate excites him/
> her
> (this is my case, hope it is yours as well).
>
> You're right, mine are not suggestions, they are demands.
>
> Wich leads me to what seems to be the (or one) underlying point
> throughout your email, that is: what right do I have to demand things
> from you? Why should you listen to my demands and work to fulfill
> [dunnow if it is the right verb here] them? What do you get from it?
>
> Well, I admit I don't know the answers; in a commercial software
> scenario it is easier, because you are paid to develop the software,
> and
> I [am supposed to] pay to use it, so asking to fix things is a right
> for
> me, and fixing things is a due for you. This is not the case with
> FLOSS
> and I don't really know what is the motivation for the developer to,
> well, develop. But I assume there is one, because if there wasn't one
> then the software would'nt exist and we wouldn't be talking about
> it. I
> have to assume that for some reason you (the developer) are interested
> in developing the software and in making it the best it can be.
> Otherwise, we wouldn't be talking in the first place.
>
> So, I don't have any right to demand anything, I am very grateful that
> PD exists the way it is, with its bugs and everything, and you don't
> have to fix anything; but assuming you are interested for some
> reason in
> developing the software and you are doing it, what kind of
> contribution
> can I give as a user?
> The answer is "feedback", and feedback consists, among other things,
> in
> DEMANDS. These demands can be reasonable or foolish, that is, the
> feedback from the user can be valuable or useless.
>
> The latter also holds for bug reports (another kind of feedback),
> which can actually help to fix the bug or not.
>
>> [.......]
>> allowing the user to go "beyond limits" usually involves more
>> sophisticated code: easier to make errors, easier to create bugs.
>
> Well yes, I agree with that, or I understand that.
> Does that mean that we should be happy with the presence of bugs?
> Seems like you're saying: "What do you prefer, a boring, simple,
> limited but rock-solid software, or a powerful, flexible [whatever
> positive adjective you may want to add here] but buggy one?"
> Well if I, as a user, had to choose I would probably agree with you
> in chosing the second one, but you, as a developer, are [should be/
> may be/whatever] committed to go towards the goal of the flexible,
> powerful [etc] AND rock-solid software...
>
> Jesus, are we discussing whether bugs should be fixed or not?????????
>
> Remember (I say this to myself too) that the whole "debate" arose
> because somebody mentioned a situation of instability and I pointed
> out that it seems to be particularly frequent with big patches in PD.
> So, let's try not to take this as a criticism (maybe the tone of my
> first mail didn't help in this sense). PD is constantly under
> development, isn't it? It is not a "finished" product (if such a
> thing even exists). So, it has its strengths and weaknesses, like
> every piece of software. It doesn't make sense to discuss whether
> the first compensate the latter or viceversa; it MAY make sense to
> analyze its strengths and merits; but I think it is more useful to
> point out weaknesses so that they can be worked on in the future.
>
> What are the weak points of PD (don't be afraid, I won't try to list
> them)? Well, to make an example everybody knows the graphical
> interface is tremendously slow. That is well known; I don't know how
> much priority the developer community give to that problem (quite
> low I guess), but the problem is well known, so there is no need to
> discuss about it.
> One thing that I have experienced, and that a few users have
> experienced but, I suspect, not so many, is that with huge patches
> things start becoming unstable. Since it is not so frequent to "hit"
> this problem, when I did, I gave my feedback about them, including
> bug reports when I could isolate some reproducible crash, and test
> patches when I could. Now, since another user commented about
> instability with huge patches, I took the opportunity to stress
> again the importance that this kind of issue has (imo, obviously),
> and to express the feeling (possibly wrong) that they are not given
> the importance they deserve.
> That's all.
>
>
>
> > sometimes I have the
>>> impression that though that is the philosophy, it is not fully
>>> expressed
>>> in the implementation.
>> true.
>> but what can you do about it?
>> basically i see two ways: do it better, or tell people that they
>> MUST do
>> it better.
>
> Well, unfortunately I can't do it better, and about the second
> option, I guess you are sarchastic. I think there's a third thing I
> can do:
> give the developers information (i.e. reports, test patches, etc)
> that can help them doing it better, which implies the assumption
> that they are interested in doing it better. If every time I do that
> I should feel like I was telling them what they MUST do, thus
> offending them, well, then I probably had better unsubscribe this
> mailing list.
>
>
>> but you feel that it is not too difficult for other people to isolate
>> the bug and fix it, with nothing more than "if i create 12000
>> instances
>> of a patch (which i cannot send you because it's proprietary and i
>> can't
>> trust you) it crashes, but it doesn't crash with 20500 instances of
>> another patch".
>
> (first, I didn't say I don't trust you; I just said I can't give you
> what is not mine, stop)
> No, I just think I have to report the bug with as much information
> as I can; if that is not enough to fix the bug, well, I tried. I
> think the developer usually has much more information than the user,
> and sometimes with some clues can find the problem even without a
> directly reproducible crash. Obviously your oversimplification or
> example is exagerated.
>
> I am a developer also (or I consider myself such), though I don't
> develop in C++; obviously my work is way way simpler than something
> even comparable to a software like PD. But sometimes "my users"
> simply report that things "don't work" and they are not capable of
> giving me a directly reproducible error that I can investigate, nor
> anything better than a confused explanation. I don't consider their
> duty to do so, I rather consider my duty to find out what's wrong,
> which is my error in the first place. Anyway, the fact that there's
> no simple way to reproduce the problem has no relevance in
> evaluating the importance of fixing it. That can be very
> frustrating, I know.
> However, I recognize this is not the same thing because I do get
> paid for the work.
>
>
>> but if somebody is ready to shout "your work frustrates me", than
>> they
>> should be prepared to get an answer "your statement frustrates me".
>> i think there's equal rights about frustrations and expressing them.
>
> Well I must recognize you are right here.
> But please be sure I didn't mean to "shout".
>
>
> --
> Matteo Sisti Sette
> matteosistisette at gmail.com
> http://www.matteosistisette.com
>
>
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