<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Apr 17, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Mark Polishook wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Sorry, I meant to send to the list but pressed reply instead of reply all.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Let's take it back on the list!</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><DIV>On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:39 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>Possibly. But I need to think about it a bit more. One issue with documentation in general that I'm not sure about is "who is the documentation for?"</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>I'm writing a tutorial for my students. So that's the context of thinking about it. Figuring out - how to rewrite existing materials at the level they come to things such as Pd.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I am also in the midst of the process of writing an intro tutorial. Right now, I am going thru all of the workshop/tutorial materials I can find (mostly listed on <A href="http://puredata.org/docs/tutorials">http://puredata.org/docs/tutorials</A> ) and putting together a tutorial for people to start from scratch. It would be great to join forces on this.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>All of my work is in CVS, plus I put up some archives on the web:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A href="http://puredata.org/Members/hans/downloads/">http://puredata.org/Members/hans/downloads/</A></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><DIV>Well, if you just want to take a stab at it, you can start another wiki page. As for who this documentation is for, I think that the definitions should be for everyone. I am all for making things clear for the beginner, but I think that over-simplifying things hinders learning in the long run. But of course that's not easy to do.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>Most of the existing documentation is excellent for those with some programming experience and computer skills but less helpful for complete beginners - this is not unique to Pd. Asking about the target audience is similar to a writer thinking about their audience. So perhaps the question is what's the level that materials should consider. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I think what we've discussed in relation to PDDP is making things modular. So there would be tutorial modules for each topic then intro modules for the newbies. The more advanced users could skip the intro modules, or there could also be advanced intro modules, like Pd for Maxers, Pd for OO Programmers, etc. But if we can use the various intros to get people to a similar level, then the other topic-specific tutorials would go from there. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I am trying to put together the intro for newbies right now, with the basic assumption that the user knows how to use a standard WIMP GUI (I don't think that a Pd tutorial would be the best place to learn how to navigate a GUI). I think its decent as it is right now, but still needs a number of gaps filled in. But our goal is to avoid writing a manual, per se, like the Max/MSP tutorial, but rather have the whole intro be in the form of step-by-step tutorial patches. So learning by doing from the very beginning.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV> I'm going to take a try at it, but the outcome will not be immediate.Oonce we get to May, I'm hoping to join in to PDDP discussion(s).</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The more, the merrier! Plus the more people contribute, the better the docs will be. I personally have found it enlightening to hear many different perspectives on teaching.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>.hc</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>.hc</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Lucida Grande" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12.1px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Lucida Grande" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12.1px;"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">.hc</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2. In the attached patch, I added symbols as you suggested. Why do I get</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the output: "list setUnit quarter" for example, instead of just "setUnit</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">quarter"? Where is this list coming from--pack by definition creates a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">list, so this behavior makes little sense.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[pack] outputs real Pd lists, which have a "list" selector at front</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">unless the first element is a float. Everything is correct in your</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">patch. If you want a "setUnit"-meta-message without the list selector</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you can split it off using [list trim] (pd>=0.39) or [route list]</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(others).</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oh, and I can't use [list append] because I'm trying to combine two</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">symbols INTO a list, and list append doesn't like the symbol in the right</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">inlet.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This isn't quite true: [list] and [list append] perfectly accept</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">symbol- and meta-messages in both inlets. I suppose you are running a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Pd version which doesn't have the [list] objects yet. Older Pd</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">versions still allowed you to create a [list] object, but it was non</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">functional.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">3. How can I found out all this list stuff? It's undocumented in my PD</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">version... I never heard of [list append] or [list prepend] before, they</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">seem to work but I can't pull up any help files on them.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You need to update your Pd. If you cannot do this globally, you should</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">at least install some version of Pd-0.39 for testing purposes. [list]</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is exxxxxtremely conventient. After you've tasted its sewwt odour, you</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">don't want to go back to list-less Pd again.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"[list] for life." (Iggy Pop)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Ciao</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Frank Barknecht <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>_ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">PD-list@iem.at</A> mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <A href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">____________________________________________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><A href="http://at.or.at/hans/">http://at.or.at/hans/</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">PD-list@iem.at</A> mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <A href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">____________________________________________________________________________</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity."</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>-John Gilmore</FONT></DIV> </DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">____________________________________________________________________________</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>- General Smedley Butler</FONT></P> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>