<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>As I always say, I am not going to stop anyone from working on any aspect of Pd however they see fit (of course, as long as it doesn't interfere with the work of others).</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I like reading too, but I think if we are teaching an interactive programming language, you can explain things really well with an example, where the same thing would take pages of text. No one is proposing that there should be no text, there will be lots of text. But the core idea is that _every_ idea is illustrated with a _functional_ example. Why settle for a static image of a patch when you can easily have a working one with the text?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Plus, it would be very easy to make a PDF from the Pd manual.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>.hc</DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Apr 20, 2006, at 7:40 PM, David Powers wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">I STRONGLY disagree with having a manual that is ONLY pd patches -- unless those patches are translated into PDF or HTML also.<BR><BR>Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I always print important reference material out onto notebooks, and I often do programming with paper and pencil. So, I'd first of all worry that a pd patch might require interactivity to fully understand what is happening. So, at a minimum, all patches should include enough text to understand the information, even if the patch isn't running. <BR><BR>Also, sometimes I reference things on work computers where I don't have pd. And, on Windows, many things still crash pd. There is nothing more annoying than being in the middle of studying things and suddenly having everything shut down and having to load it all up again. <BR><BR>So, I feel that a "manual" worthy of the name should allow one to access the information, regardless of having pd running or not. Perhaps the patches could just be converted to PDF, and somehow a page index created. <BR><BR>I LIKE "book learning", I often learn best that way--I have made many good pd patches and python programs riding the bus or train many times. In fact, I find that when I plan with pen and paper, my pd patches come out much better, and it's very helpful to have traditional reference materials when working in this way. Does everyone really have a problem with making a traditional manual for pd? <BR><BR>~David<BR><BR><DIV><SPAN class="gmail_quote">On 4/19/06, <B class="gmail_sendername">Hans-Christoph Steiner</B> <<A href="mailto:hans@eds.org">hans@eds.org</A>> wrote:</SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <BR>Is Adam Hyde on the list? I think its great for anyone to join,<BR>seriously, the more the merrier. Already, the intro that I have been<BR>assembling is drawing on the work of 10 or so people.<BR><BR>We discussed the idea of a manual a fair amount in the PDDP <BR>meetings. I think most/all of us agreed that we want to try to make<BR>a Pd manual that is completely made up of Pd patches. The point is<BR>to highlight learning thru example for every single step. Having a<BR>separate manual seems to highlight the book learning style more. <BR>Yes, this will mean a lot of patches. I already have 60-ish for the<BR>intro.<BR><BR>But I also just made a pager object which allows you to easily<BR>navigate the pages like a manual. Its included in the most recent <BR>test releases:<BR><BR><A href="http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html">http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html</A><BR><BR>Go to Help->Browser... then manuals/intro and load 0-pager.pd I<BR>tested it on Windows and Mac OS X. <BR><BR>.hc<BR><BR>On Apr 19, 2006, at 5:07 PM, derek holzer wrote:<BR><BR>> Hey HC and the gang,<BR>><BR>> Adam Hyde has been working on a PDF/HTML manual for getting PD up<BR>> and running. I've talked with him a bit about how beneficial such a <BR>> thing is versus a set of patches like the ones which have been<BR>> contributed here. But you might want to have a look at it:<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.flossmanuals.net/edit">http://www.flossmanuals.net/edit </A><BR>><BR>> I may be meeting with him soon about where it could go, and I'm<BR>> sure he's open for other suggestions as well.<BR>><BR>> Mark Polishook wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Two comments: 1. the patches are very good at identifying core <BR>>> concepts and explaining them. 2. But the hard thing about tutorial<BR>>> writing is it's difficult to show how those small concepts relate<BR>>> to larger artistic concerns.<BR>><BR>> I agree on both fronts. The main issue with PD is that people use <BR>> it for so many different things that demonstrating "artistic<BR>> concerns" would be pretty limited to what the author happens to be<BR>> doing with PD. All the same, I do find that there is a serious lack <BR>> of "demo" patches, or something like a "user library" that noobs<BR>> could have a look at for inspiration. Simple and not so simple but<BR>> usable tools, along the same lines as the User Library in Reaktor, <BR>> or maybe even the Pluggo patches from Cycling74 (except you can't<BR>> open those up, can you???). I tried to make something like that<BR>> with ParticleChamber, and I know that other stuff has come up on<BR> > the list when people ask about synth collections and the like.<BR>> Might be good to try to collect these kinds of abstractions<BR>> together into a library of sorts (a la RRRAD).<BR>><BR>> best,<BR>> derek <BR>><BR>> --<BR>> derek holzer ::: <A href="http://www.umatic.nl">http://www.umatic.nl</A><BR>> ---Oblique Strategy # 76:<BR>> "Give the game away"<BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________________ <BR>____<BR><BR> As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should<BR>be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;<BR>and this we should do freely and generously.<BR> - Benjamin Franklin <BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR><A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">PD-list@iem.at</A> mailing list<BR>UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <A href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list"> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">PD-list@iem.at</A> mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <A href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">____________________________________________________________________________</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>- Benjamin Franklin</FONT></P> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>