<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>This is the stuff that I think is much more interesting, it's the stuff that doesn't make for sexy videos, but actually improves your life:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A href="http://www.cycling74.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2007/9/28/105551/882">http://www.cycling74.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2007/9/28/105551/882</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>"Let me give you just one example of what I'm talking about. In Max 4.x there was something we call the "quick reference" menu. You might not even know about it because it involves clicking on an object with two keys held down (and naturally, I can't remember which ones they are right now!). We've improved this feature in a number of ways. First, to see the menu, all you have to do is click on the inlet of the object. A menu of all the messages and attributes for the object will pop up. And when you mouse over a message name, a description of what it does appears taken directly from the Max reference documentation. Select the message, and Max creates a message box containing the message name already connected to the object's inlet. "</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>This is an interesting change, but it seems to be another hack on the already whacked Max/Pd symbol/list handling:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>"You no longer need to prepend a message with "symbol" in order to send it to a message box."</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>.hc</DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 9, 2007, at 5:36 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I understand that they are trying to separate the interface from the implementation. The problem with that technique is there isn't a clear way to tell which item in presentation mode belongs to which item in edit mode. I can see having to click back and forth between presentation and edit modes to figure out which GUI element is attached where. It'll only get worse with more complicated patches.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Max/Pd are graphical languages, so such things should be represented visually, whenever possible. I don't see how the two different positions are represented, besides the little moving fade between the two modes.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I think the "hide patch coords" function also has similar issues, it basically reinforces bad habits. The Pd graph-on-parent makes more sense IMHO because it uses existing Pd mechanisms for encapsulation and encourages patchers to modularize their programs. GOP definitely needs work, but I think it's a better path.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>On a positive note, the new file browser stuff looks really handy. The drag-n-drop message creation looks nifty, but I am not sure how useful it is. Maybe yes, maybe no.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>.hc</DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 9, 2007, at 3:15 PM, vade wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Hans, thats the whole point of presentation mode, to separate the patching logic from the presentation!</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">you can organize your gui elements in the code in places that make sense and follow the logical flow of the patch, and then present them in the UI however you choose.</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">I am so glad they finally listened to Max users screaming for PD's keyboard shortcuts for instantiation of objects method. Will make patching much faster for us Max users.</FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"> </FONT></P> <BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 9, 2007, at 2:55 PM, altern wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">these links interesting as well.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">An article by Zicarelly:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.cycling74.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2007/9/28/105551/882">http://www.cycling74.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2007/9/28/105551/882</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and videos showing the new max:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.cycling74.com/story/2007/10/5/91222/9559">http://www.cycling74.com/story/2007/10/5/91222/9559</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hans-Christoph Steiner(e)k dio:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hmm, looks nice, with lots of nifty features.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>But I think a lot of them<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">would drive me nuts.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Like the fact that you can move the GUI elements<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">around in presentation mode separately from edit mode.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">.hc</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On Oct 8, 2007, at 9:53 PM, Thomas O Fredericks wrote:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/10/08/first-max-5-preview-music-patching-the-next-generation/">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/10/08/first-max-5-preview-music-patching-the-next-generation/</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">PD-list@iem.at</A> <<A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">mailto:PD-list@iem.at</A>> mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">----------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You can't steal a gift. Bird gave the world his music, and if you can<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hear it, you can have it. - Dizzy Gillespie</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">PD-list@iem.at</A> mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <A href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">PD-list@iem.at</A> mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <A href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#B51C1C" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px;; color: rgb(181, 28, 28); "><B style="color: rgb(181, 28, 28); font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(181, 28, 28); font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; ">v a d e //</SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 10px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 12px; ; font-size: 10px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#7F7F7F"><BR style="color: rgb(127, 127, 127); font-size: 10px; "></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#7F7F7F" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px;; color: rgb(127, 127, 127); "><B style="color: rgb(127, 127, 127); font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(127, 127, 127); font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; ">www.vade.info</SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#7F7F7F" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px;; color: rgb(127, 127, 127); "><B style="color: rgb(127, 127, 127); font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(127, 127, 127); font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; ">abstrakt.vade.info</SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:PD-list@iem.at">PD-list@iem.at</A> mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <A href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>- Martin Luther King, Jr.</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>