On 10/22/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Andrew Brouse</b> <<a href="mailto:brouse@music.mcgill.ca">brouse@music.mcgill.ca</a>> wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
It is clear, in any case, that for these sorts of gatherings in the<br>Pd community, there is still a long way to go.<br><br>As an old "gauchiste", I have always believed that the ultimate goal<br>for human society was for all people to be considered and treated as
<br>equals - in all aspects of life.<br><br>I also always understood the notion of "Politically Correct'" - a<br>critical term which originated in the left, but has now been co-opted<br>by the right - to indicate the tendency, of some, to be more
<br>interested in linguistic semantics than material reality.<br><br>I am interested in material reality.<br>I am interested in seeing redress, actual material change - in our<br>society, in our world - for those who have been materially
<br>disfavoured. I do what I can to help that process along.</blockquote><div><br>Sometimes this means "for members of categories with many members who have been materially disfavoured." In fact many white men have been materially disfavoured, and if that's really the criteria for those deserving redress, then include those individuals. Otherwise, the wording is a little off.
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">At the same time, there are real differences between women and men.<br>There is no point trying to minimise those differences.
<br>Women are equal, but different.</blockquote><div><br>I think all people are not equal, and they are different. I understand what you're saying, I think, that women are "as human" or perhaps "sovereign"... but I don't like using the word "equal" to mean something it doesn't mean.
<br><br>I don't want to cause unnecessary waves, but I think an initiative to involve women in something like this- "like this" meaning open and free- resembles society-building. I guess on some things I can be libertarian. But to whose benefit is it to push for female involvement? Is involvement in Pd something that makes women's lives better? I think that your choice of words earlier (which I snipped) was good: "enabling" women and other Pd minorities is all good, but what if Pd just doesn't appeal to lots of women? It doesn't appeal to the majority of men, and definitely not to the majority of musicians, and I don't think that bothers any of us.
<br>I think not asking for sex/gender on the application for papers is the right idea. The best way to be "gender neutral" is not to make the distinction.<br>It seems most of the community disagrees with me; I don't mean any slight to anyone, but this happens to be how I see the "issue".
<br><br>-Chuckk <br><br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">What a beautiful difference.<br><br><br>Andrew<br><br><br>
<br><br>On 21-Oct-07, at 8:25 PM, <a href="mailto:pd-list-request@iem.at">pd-list-request@iem.at</a> wrote:<br><br>> Message: 3<br>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:13:51 -0400 (EDT)<br>> From: "Alexandre Castonguay" <
<a href="mailto:acastonguay@artengine.ca">acastonguay@artengine.ca</a>><br>> Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE<br>> To: <a href="mailto:ydegoyon@free.fr">ydegoyon@free.fr</a><br>> Cc:
<a href="mailto:pd-list@iem.at">pd-list@iem.at</a><br>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:61802.137.122.128.159.1192983231.squirrel@artengine.ca">61802.137.122.128.159.1192983231.squirrel@artengine.ca</a>><br>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
<br>><br>> Hi all, Yves,<br>><br>> Here are some facts may help explain and paint a correct picture of<br>> the<br>> convention's gender distribution.<br>><br>> Number of applications received for the exhibition component :
<br>><br>> 9 (F)<br>> 26 (M)<br>><br>> Invitations sent :<br>><br>> 6 (F)<br>> 12 (M)<br>><br>> Number of applications for performances (* I am unsure as to the<br>> gender of<br>> one applicant as we didn't ask people to specify it in their
<br>> application.)<br>><br>> 3 (F)<br>> 32 (M)<br>><br>> Invitations sent :<br>><br>> 2 (F)<br>> 18 (M)<br>><br>> As Andrew Brouse noted, the applications for papers did not carry the<br>
> author's names so it makes it hard to get a picture of the gender<br>> breakdown. Out of 46 'papers invitations', 2 were extended to women<br>> and I<br>> believe that may unfortunately be the number of applicants? Andrew
<br>> may be<br>> able to answer to that.<br>><br>> I believe that the impression Yves got is justified. It is just<br>> that the<br>> community is overwhelmingly male and 'white' (another thread!). It
<br>> also<br>> seems that the juries for the papers, exhibition and performances were<br>> conscious of the fact as it is somewhat reflected in the final<br>> breakdown<br>> of invitations sent.<br>><br>
> Some observations on other parts of this long thread that may yet<br>> yield<br>> something positive.<br>><br>> * The component of the convention that had the highest<br>> representation of<br>> women applicants was the exhibition. It shows that this form of
<br>> contribution is often the way through which women enter the<br>> community. It<br>> should be maintained and expanded through other conventions.<br>><br>> * I heard through the application process that some women were
<br>> intimidated<br>> by the perceived technological sophistication of the pd scene and<br>> thought<br>> that their work may not be 'pure' enough to warrant an application. In<br>> that light, dismissing people whose work process calls on external
<br>> expertise to be realized does not help with that perception of purity.<br>><br>> * I am personally glad that our efforts of providing better<br>> documentation<br>> and access to the software got a renewed push through the work
<br>> groups and<br>> discussions happening at the convention.<br>><br>> * Building a more representative community will take time and many<br>> more<br>> pd-conventions, workshops, efforts through documentation and
<br>> packaging,<br>> participating in long email threads and chats. Let's keep in mind<br>> that<br>> most of us take part in these efforts because we believe we can<br>> make the<br>> community more inclusive, make good work and have fun while doing it.
<br>><br>> A bientot,<br>><br>> Alexandre<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> On Friday 19 October 2007 08:24:26 <a href="mailto:ydegoyon@free.fr">ydegoyon@free.fr</a> wrote:<br>>> ola,<br>>>
<br>>>> Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that<br>>>> matter I know nothing about Yves. As I said- the original<br>>>> statement was<br>>>> completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to
<br>>>> that fact.<br>>>> I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.<br>>><br>>> wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2<br>>> weeks
<br>>> ago, but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on,<br>>> and was also a general feeling from pd convention<br>>> ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ),<br>>> too bad some people speaking here were not there.
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