Hi Patrice,<div><br></div><div>I think you didn't get my point... I mentioned Coltrane as an example of a musician that extrapolated his own instrument from the 12-tone idea (particularly from <i>A Love Supreme</i> on).</div>
<div><br></div><div>However, I think that open musical structures are a more complex subject to put it into the "improvisation" badge. For instance, if you take Terry Riley's "In C", to name a well-known piece, its structure is fairly open, although no player improvises. This is also used in many musical pieces and it was discussed even by Umberto Eco as <i>open works</i>...<i> </i>and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they differ from improvisation... </div>
<div><br></div><div>And again, what "whatever he likes" mean when you're using Pd? If you're the composer <i>and</i> the performer, you're free to put whatever pleases you aesthetically but that doesn't consist of improvisation, as I see. When you design a patch in Pd you don't have <i>all</i> possibilities in your hands at any given time, and that is why I think the idea of improvisation is, perhaps, misinterpreted.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'm not postulating an ultimate truth or mentality whatsoever, I'm just.. speculating. :) </div><div><br></div><div>Cheers!</div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Patrice Colet <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:colet.patrice@free.fr">colet.patrice@free.fr</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> If the musical structure you are playing on is opened,<br>
also when the player is free to put whatever he likes,<br>
you can call it an improvisation.<br>
You don't need to be Coltrane to improvise,<br>
what the hell is that mentality????<br>
<br>
<br>
----- "Pedro Oliveira" <<a href="mailto:hello@partidoalto.net">hello@partidoalto.net</a>> a écrit :<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
> Jumping on the discussion (not a frequent poster, but I do follow), I<br>
> must say I agree with Marco... but one question (kinda related, but at<br>
> the same time isn't): what would consist, then, "improvisation" when<br>
> using Pd?<br>
><br>
><br>
> I mean, if you consider free improvisation the only thing I can think<br>
> of, in five seconds, is "live coding". However, if you think of an<br>
> instrument there are also "pre-given" structures one must follow, that<br>
> is, pitch range, playability, timbre and so on. Roughly, with<br>
> traditional instruments (from western tradition) you can't go that far<br>
> away from the 12-tone paradigm (of course, a few exceptions here and<br>
> there with guys like Otomo Yoshihide for the guitar or Coltrane/Evan<br>
> Parker for Saxophone), but then, again... what is true improvisation<br>
> in the context of Pd, Max, whatever?<br>
><br>
><br>
> I'm asking because, like I said, I do agree with Marco - recombining<br>
> patterns doesn't consist of improvisation for me as well... and if<br>
> improvisation in that case consists of playing notes over the riffs<br>
> and patterns, why use a gestural controller? Just for the sake of<br>
> technology?<br>
><br>
><br>
> Such topic interests me a lot, I'd love to hear your thoughts :)<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Marco Donnarumma < <a href="mailto:devel@thesaddj.com">devel@thesaddj.com</a><br>
> > wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Ingo,<br>
> thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement<br>
> and not<br>
> too much music control.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in<br>
> gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all?<br>
> I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our<br>
> perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere<br>
> "device".<br>
> Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better focus on this<br>
> aspect.<br>
><br>
><br>
> How would you play such melodic lines (like those jazz licks) - in<br>
> time -<br>
> simply with gestural control?<br>
><br>
><br>
> Setting an array of preset chords, triggering them with multiple<br>
> switches, deploying a timeline which holds the trigger until the onset<br>
> of the next beat or quarter, etc...<br>
> I guess the list here could come up with many other methods.<br>
> I'm not saying that's trivial, I only think that it's not the "future"<br>
> as it is presented in the video.<br>
><br>
><br>
> How would you improvise on scales, pattern or<br>
> harmonic structures? After all he's a jazz player calling his music<br>
> "beat<br>
> jazz".<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> What do you call improvisation in this case?<br>
> How much is he improvising?<br>
> I can imagine he's "improvising" with the melodic lines, but playing<br>
> samples and presets chords doesn't match my own definition of<br>
> improvisation.<br>
><br>
><br>
> cheers,<br>
> M<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Marco Donnarumma<br>
> Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer,<br>
> Instructor<br>
> ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing)<br>
> The University of Edinburgh, UK<br>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
> Portfolio: <a href="http://marcodonnarumma.com" target="_blank">http://marcodonnarumma.com</a><br>
> Lab: <a href="http://www.thesaddj.com" target="_blank">http://www.thesaddj.com</a> | <a href="http://cntrl.sourceforge.net" target="_blank">http://cntrl.sourceforge.net</a> |<br>
> <a href="http://www.flxer.net" target="_blank">http://www.flxer.net</a><br>
> Event: <a href="http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net" target="_blank">http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> <a href="mailto:Pd-list@iem.at">Pd-list@iem.at</a> mailing list<br>
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -><br>
> <a href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Pedro Oliveira<br>
> <a href="http://www.partidoalto.net" target="_blank">www.partidoalto.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul" target="_blank">soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> <a href="mailto:Pd-list@iem.at">Pd-list@iem.at</a> mailing list<br>
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -><br>
> <a href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br>
<br>
--<br>
</div></div><font color="#888888">Patrice Colet<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Pedro Oliveira<br><a href="http://www.partidoalto.net">www.partidoalto.net</a><br><a href="http://soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul">soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul</a><br><br>
</div>