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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/22/2013 05:34 PM, Dan Wilcox
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2A729CA4-D6E4-4B0E-9C2C-826C99EE0D47@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
I'm not going to argue OS politics, again use what works best for
you. I can understand the frustration with how the build system
works on OSX. It is actually really nice in a lot of ways but it
took me a while to get the hang of it after switching from Linux.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Without counting Debian, I still think there's really no need
at this point to support a PPC build for OSX. When I wrote "drop
PPC support" in earlier emails, I was referring only to OSX.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I understand. It just seemed you were explaining why PPC is no
longer supported as the natural outgrowth of software development
progress. I mentioned Debian both because I'm curious if anyone
runs it on PPC, and also as a counter-example to the type of
development model Apple uses. (One which is able to support a much
wider variety of architectures at a fraction of the cost.)<br>
<br>
A longer discussion of OS politics is probably an unnecessary
digression here: both you and I are building things in OSX, and that
won't change by pointing out differences in our philosophy for why
we do it. But I just wanted to point out that "use what works for
you" should expand to "use what works for you without creating a
moral hazard for all of us". One doesn't need to use the language
of free software advocates in order to do that, but free software is
undoubtedly part of any viable solution.<br>
<br>
If the internet that connects all these devices weren't actively
being weaponized I probably wouldn't quibble over this.<br>
<br>
Well, I might, but it'd feel more like a pasttime and less like a
necessity. :)<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2A729CA4-D6E4-4B0E-9C2C-826C99EE0D47@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div> The code as it is now should compile just fine on Debian PPC
since the only architecture differences as far as I know would
be compiling for little endian versus big endian on Intel. I
don't think there are any architecture specific assembly /
function calls in Pd.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So in the end, dropping OSX PPC support helps in simplifying
the build scripts at least. Again, I think there's really no
need to host newer Pd OSX PPC binaries, just leave the last one
there since anyone using it will be on a much older version of
OSX anyway.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ok, that sounds like the way to go then.<br>
<br>
-Jonathan<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2A729CA4-D6E4-4B0E-9C2C-826C99EE0D47@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:05 PM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pd-list-request@iem.at">pd-list-request@iem.at</a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<blockquote
cite="mid:DF02032A-DE46-4CBD-B136-5057F0894C8A@gmail.com"
type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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<blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal;
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rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important;
float: none; "><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
Also, do you have any references for the claim
that the vast majority of OSX</span><br
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
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none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important;
float: none; ">users have moved away from PPC?</span></blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://update.omnigroup.com/">http://update.omnigroup.com/</a> (Hardware
/ CPU type): Intel 97.8% PPC 2.2%</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.adium.im/sparkle/">https://www.adium.im/sparkle/</a> (CPU
type): Intel 97.83% PPC 2.71%</div>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">Thanks. Those are low numbers, but I'd
imagine the number of PPC users is</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
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normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">still fairly high:</span><br
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.statisticbrain.com/apple-computer-company-statistics/"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">http://www.statisticbrain.com/apple-computer-company-statistics/</a><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
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normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<blockquote
cite="mid:DF02032A-DE46-4CBD-B136-5057F0894C8A@gmail.com"
type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
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<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display:
inline !important; float: none; ">I find Jobs'
claim that Apple doesn't ship</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display:
inline !important; float: none; ">junk to
generally be true, and combined with their
development model the</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
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widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display:
inline !important; float: none; ">unfortunate
result would seem to be that poor people still
using their once</span><br style="font-family:
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display:
inline !important; float: none; ">sleek and sexy
devices are ignored along with their now ugly,
unprofitable</span><br style="font-family:
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normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display:
inline !important; float: none; ">devices.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>Well, those "sleek and sexy" PPC devices were
last made & sold in 2005, so it's not a surprise
the vast majority of people using OSX have Intel
machines mainly because software developers (&
the OS) have moved on to 32 bit and now 64 bit intel
years ago.</div>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
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rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">Debian supports PPC, no? Anyone know how it
does on the old machines? I suppose since Pd is in
the repos one could say it still supports PPC. :)</span><br
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<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
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<blockquote
cite="mid:DF02032A-DE46-4CBD-B136-5057F0894C8A@gmail.com"
type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your political bias notwithstanding (I say use
what works for you),</div>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
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-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">Well, I'd call it a political stance. And
where it seemed quirky and deeply</span><br
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
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rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">personal when I first adopted it, it now seems
simply to be a restatement</span><br
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
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-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">of the scientific method for computer
security, at a time when there have</span><br
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">been revelations that show our computers
really need to be as secure as</span><br
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">possible against attacks.</span><br
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<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
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rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">I'd also point out that yours is a political
stance. While I understand</span><br
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">it, I must disagree with it because in terms
of security it is much more</span><br
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">difficult to use the scientific method to
check whether the specs actually</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">fit the implementation. In some cases on
proprietary OSes neither are</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">known so you're forced to reverse engineer the
software, and for</span><br style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; float:
none; ">complex systems that's too time consuming and
expensive to do.</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>--------</div>
<div>Dan Wilcox</div>
<div>@danomatika</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://danomatika.com">danomatika.com</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://robotcowboy.com">robotcowboy.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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