<div dir="ltr"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">thanks for explaining it all</font><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">> imagine trying to design something like that </font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">> which is also backwards compatible with the</font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">> crude namespacing tools that already exist in Pd.</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">> It's not possible</font></div><div class="gmail_extra"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_extra"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">ok, here's where I'm a bit confuse. You're not saying it'd be impossible to make messages inherit the $0 value, are you?</font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_extra"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:large">As I don't see I'll be able to grasp the details for now, I'll just take your word for it :)</span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_extra"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">cheers</font></div><div class="gmail_extra"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br>
</font><div class="gmail_quote"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">2014-04-03 15:52 GMT-03:00 Jonathan Wilkes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jancsika@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jancsika@yahoo.com</a>></span>:<br>
</font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">For example, if you have two help patches open and each has an array inside it named "array1". One of the help patches will work, and the other won't. That's because
"Put" menu arrays assume you only have one array by that name. Pd will use the first one it finds (probably the first one you create) and the duplicate will be ignored.</font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br>
</font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">In the case of arrays you'll get a warning, because you're not supposed to use the same name twice. But with the send/receive classes (as well as many
other objects that use pd_bind) you can have many s/r pairs sharing the same name.<br><br>So suppose you have [s loop] and [r loop] in a subpatch, and [s loop] and [r loop] in an unrelated subpatch.</font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br>Are those s/r pairs supposed to communicate with each other? Or...</font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">Did the author forget he/she already used the name "loop" for the first s/r pair and
doesn't actually want the other s/r pair to
communicate with the first?<br></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">If the answer to the second question is yes, then that's an example of a nameclash. Pd doesn't give you a way to tell the difference. Most programming languages have clear and sensible ways to avoid this. There's even a Pd external to do it-- I think it's called
[sendlocal] and [receivelocal]-- but its
author erroneously thought that $0 deprecates those objects.</font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">Pd gurus on the list can give you seemingly simple workarounds for these problems with scope and nameclashes, but as you the programmer accumulate them it gets more and more unwieldy. Worse, it makes it difficult to read patches, as you must spend
time decoding someone else's idiosyncratic use of [makefilename] or whatever they are doing to get Pd to do what is concise, consistent and robust in nearly every other modern programming language.</font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">Finally-- and again-- these problems cannot be improved in Pd without breaking some backwards compatibility.
Just take the related issue of namespaces with external libraries-- it's hard enough to design and test something robust like Python's namespacing. Now imagine trying to design something like that which is also backwards compatible with the crude namespacing tools that already exist in Pd. It's not possible, and that means as long as people imagine Pd Vanilla as the "core" Pd $0 hackery is the only way to simulate scoping.</font></div>
<span class=""><font color="#888888" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">-Jonathan</div>
</font></span><div><div class="h5"><div style="display:block"> <div>
<div> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"> On Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:35 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres <<a href="mailto:porres@gmail.com" target="_blank">porres@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</font></div> <div><div><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">> * when you run into nameclashes, you know your project </font><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">> has outgrown Pd and it's time to choose another
language<br clear="none">
</font><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none"></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">what's a nameclash? (maybe I haven't outgrown Pd yet)</font></div>
</div></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></font><div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">2014-04-03 13:00 GMT-03:00 Jonathan Wilkes <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">jancsika@yahoo.com</a>></span>:<br clear="none">
</font><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">On 04/03/2014 04:00 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:<br clear="none">
</font><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br clear="none">
Hash: SHA256<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 2014-04-03 03:05, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</font></blockquote>
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none"></font></div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">
[...]</font><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</font><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none">
btw: i would probably even recommend to use explicit *connections*<br clear="none">
(rather than send/receive pairs) for anything local. then you never<br clear="none">
have the problem of "[qlist] and locality" - very simple and forces<br clear="none">
you to think about your object interfaces.<br clear="none">
</font></blockquote>
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none"></font></div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4">
I would also recommend only using global receive-symbols when you have to use them. That way:<br clear="none">
* your patches are more readable<br clear="none">
* no need to feed $0 to message boxes<br clear="none">
* when you run into nameclashes, you know your project has outgrown Pd and it's time to choose another language<span><font color="#888888"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-Jonathan</font></span></font><div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</font><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
fgmasdr<br clear="none">
IOhannes<br clear="none">
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br clear="none">
Version: GnuPG v1<br clear="none">
Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://www.enigmail.net/</a><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTPRULAAoJELZQGc<u></u>R/ejb4NioP/0Kyyz4MA+<u></u>Tqq8890uEHGj9Z<br clear="none">
FZHEo5z/idBj7Z+<u></u>WmAHrEipkIW70pnVBB4bVzC8owgV66<u></u>AQZBuEqXMeJcIpu3MXK<br clear="none">
ULvsvxcFcoY9YH7hbJAF+<u></u>mlDFvbh1CXcVbvEChZ8y5rz0XekSMf<u></u>+//qUfJSlKTWX<br clear="none">
GXjJzw8s42yfSpVJYBjEh6fBFzlk2f<u></u>oLRFPFXaR6Cbj+Y7aNEiW//+<u></u>Vim3nOzleT<br clear="none">
6azYe0leLabir72nnWIKGahnT2GXgW<u></u>kgxu6L//<u></u>nTgsBYOa1COUoKOh44wvBbMSoW<br clear="none">
lbLduDY5drxJbyISGoZdsuailriv1x<u></u>MGIkiSwTw4WSwVWBj2kv5MgoHC09ug<u></u>qtLe<br clear="none">
bVHrizcP09+<u></u>VUz20y8IMnXrRRgj8AU8Z+<u></u>9xzZIzf9PV3U15zSlRqwZSFIwMCuhY<u></u>s<br clear="none">
CeRqxtDFVsB/PARQoCys/<u></u>B4QDjAszBPE2VC1xKSelBMjyGbvPyZ<u></u>A7uq/R199zLCy<br clear="none">
WMp0uu0+Q6WKa/zIB+<u></u>sphLlifnXjYYXJaCGZNOzign1EJLOn<u></u>BvOY/4zgE3bHtx9r<br clear="none">
FIlSFSMo6BrYjOEJvh/MxF90TawI/<u></u>aCQ/MbEea0+finxJi2jp2PnMom+<u></u>QbCvjfBa<br clear="none">
zLh8hlNP0tLp21Jo1ydzu0/<u></u>vYb9mEzMQtpEv9lqrde0INcEKL9Tas<u></u>wFGf5TXyM7h<br clear="none">
JeTnSBV0Th0CjQER9Gik<br clear="none">
=oC+u<br clear="none">
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">Pd-list@iem.at</a> mailing list<br clear="none">
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://lists.puredata.info/<u></u>listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none">
</font></blockquote>
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">Pd-list@iem.at</a> mailing list<br clear="none">
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://lists.puredata.info/<u></u>listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none">
</font></div></div></blockquote></div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br clear="none"></font></div></div></div></div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br><br></font></div> </div> </div>
</div> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>