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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I can add nothing of substance to this
argument, but agree fully with Ivica. In many years, I have yet to
hear a convincing argument why $0 cannot be recognized as the
unique canvas identifier inside a message box. On the plus side,
it would eliminate a great deal of cruft hanging off of message
boxes used to kludge $0 into messages, something which occurs
constantly, at least in my patches.<br>
<br>
<br>
Phil Stone<br>
UC Davis<br>
<br>
On 9/10/14, 10:08 AM, Ivica Bukvic wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJrgGbZSTMFfXSpXrG9uMs6fdUVE8O2M2t-1J5ZdhvzWj8H5mA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p dir="ltr">What about for instance arrays that should maintain
scope inside a specific abstraction so that you can have
multiple independent abstractions? $0 is very useful IMHO and is
also necessary to stay due to backwards compatibility concerns.
Therefore, I think the discussion should be limited to a simple
yes or no for $0 substitution inside a message as it does not
introduce a myriad of other questions.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Having message recognize it as such (the code already
seeks to resolve dollarzero but fails because the canvas was not
set as current which should be a simple addition of a couple of
lines of code) makes sense even if the only benefit is not
having to do [$0] or what you are suggesting, namely
[zerofy-me]. It is also worth noting that there is no reason why
the two could not coexist.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Yet, as it stands right now, $0, contrary to what has
been already said in both threads on this topic, is an anomaly
inside a message box and behaves like nothing else anywhere else
in the code and as such this should be a no-brainer fix, just
like having a trigger with static values, like [t 0 f 1] for
opening a gate, passing a value, and then immediately closing
it. This is what pd-l2ork does (and so does Max). So, rather
than putting redundant messages with static values below the [t
b] outlet, one object solves it all. To me this is the same
situation where message can do it all, and if that makes my
patching quicker, I am all for it.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sep 10, 2014 12:48 PM, "Jonathan
Wilkes" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jancsika@yahoo.com">jancsika@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div
style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Two things:<br>
<br>
<span></span>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><span>1)
the lack of "$0" in messages is only a symptom of a
bigger problem with scope of binding symbols in Pd.
I'd rather see new objects (or wrapper objects) that
handle scope in a sensible manner which doesn't
require typing "$0-" at all. There's already no need
for $0 in your preset_hub/node design. Why not extend
the hub/node idea and get rid of the need for $0
completely?</span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><span>[hub]/[node]
= [send]/[receive]</span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><span>[hub~]/[node~]
= [throw~]/[catch~]</span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">etc.<br>
<span></span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">2)
On a more superficial note, isn't the problem that Pd
doesn't store stray "\n" characters in message boxes?
The only time I can think of when one would have a real
desire for $0 in a message box is when initializing a
bunch of receivers:</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">[;
$0-foo 1;</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">$0-bar
2;</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">$0-flub
3;(</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">But
if the box stored "\n" you could get the same clean
format with commas:</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">[foo
1,</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">bar
2,</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">flub
3(</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">|</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">[zerofy-me]
<- add a "$0-" to the selector<br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">|
|<br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">[send]</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal">No
ugly zeros, no leading semi-colon, everybody wins!<br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><span>-Jonathan<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="display:block">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> On Wednesday,
September 10, 2014 2:27 AM, Ivica Bukvic <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ico@vt.edu" target="_blank">ico@vt.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
On Sep 10, 2014 1:17 AM, "Chris McCormick"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:chris@mccormick.cx"
target="_blank">chris@mccormick.cx</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Hi Ivica,<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> On 10/09/14 04:19, Ivica Ico Bukvic
wrote:<br clear="none">
> > Yet, I wonder why message
shouldn't be able to pre-parse $0 into a
valid<br clear="none">
> > dollarzero (canvas instance), when
there will never be a message one<br
clear="none">
> ><br clear="none">
> > Thoughts?<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> There has been a lot of discussion
regarding this over the years which<br
clear="none">
> might be good to read to get an idea on
the different<br clear="none">
> philosophical/language design issues:<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.puredata.general/56365"
target="_blank">http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.puredata.general/56365</a>></div>
<div dir="ltr">Thanks, Chris, for bringing
this to my attention. Since one of Miller's
core ideas behind pd is absolute backwards
compatibility, most of alternatives
suggested in that thread would cause
unacceptable breakage with backwards
compatibility or a really kludge workaround
for the support of legacy patches. It seems
to me Phil really has a point I completely
agree with. FWIW, I am looking to implement
this in pd-l2ork and as soon as I get a
better idea about the recursion Miller
mentioned and how to circumvent it, it
should find its way into pd-l2ork's source.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Best,</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Ico<br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">><br clear="none">
> Cheers,<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Chris.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> --<br clear="none">
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
href="http://mccormick.cx/"
target="_blank">http://mccormick.cx/</a><br
clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Phil Stone
Programmer - Application Development Team
Information Technology
UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine
530-752-5282 (o)</pre>
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