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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/25/2014 12:54 PM, Jonathan Wilkes
via Pd-list wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:1411664043.42392.YahooMailNeo@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
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<div>Um... have you actually read the source for DesireData?</div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
Just to clarify this-- from m_pd.h desiredata 2010.01.05:<br>
<br>
struct _symbol {<br>
char *name; /* the const string that represents this
symbol */<br>
t_pd *thing; /* pointer to the target of a
receive-symbol or to the bindlist of several targets */<br>
struct _symbol *next; /* brochette of all symbols (only for
permanent symbols) */<br>
size_t refcount; /* refcount<0 means that the symbol is
permanent */<br>
size_t n; /* size of name (support for NUL
characters) */<br>
#ifdef PD_PLUSPLUS_FACE<br>
bool operator == (const char *s) const {return
strcmp(this->name,s)==0;}<br>
bool operator != (const char *s) const {return
strcmp(this->name,s);}<br>
#endif<br>
};<br>
<br>
Desiredata's t_symbol has extra members that aren't in Pd Vanilla's
t_symbol struct. If there is any external out there that uses an
array of symbols, then there will be problems due to this binary
compatibility.<br>
<br>
I have no idea if this is representative of the rest of DesireData
or if it is an outlier. I only know it is a form of binary
incompatibility. Whether it is a significant form is up for
discussion, but that requires a more sophisticated discussion than
"Pd-l2ork = binary_incompatible = bad".<br>
<br>
-Jonathan<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1411664043.42392.YahooMailNeo@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color:
transparent;">If someone wants to write me up a nice, concise,
friendly non-sarcastic spec about how to change Pd-l2ork's
code so that it can be binary compatible with the same
features it currently has, I'll be happy to try implementing
it.</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color:
transparent;"><br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color:
transparent;">-Jonathan</div>
<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br>
<br>
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<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Thursday,
September 25, 2014 12:04 PM, Ivica Bukvic
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu"><ico@vt.edu></a> wrote:<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="y_msg_container">
<div id="yiv0249173398">
<div dir="ltr">...As strange as it may sound I must
admit I've missed our broken conversations/banter.
Welcome back, Hans!</div>
<div dir="ltr">Alas, this time I will have to bow
out--so many things to do, so little time. Hope
you'll understand.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Best,</div>
<div dir="ltr">Ico</div>
<div class="yiv0249173398gmail_quote">On Sep 25, 2014
11:08 AM, "Hans-Christoph Steiner" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:hans@at.or.at" target="_blank"
href="mailto:hans@at.or.at">hans@at.or.at</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv0249173398gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex;"><br>
You can take an external compiled for the same
OS/arch and it loads and works<br>
on all of them.<br>
<br>
.hc<br>
<br>
Ivica Bukvic wrote:<br>
> Based on what metrics?<br>
> On Sep 25, 2014 11:05 AM, "Hans-Christoph
Steiner" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:hans@at.or.at"
target="_blank" href="mailto:hans@at.or.at">hans@at.or.at</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> For libraries, there is binary
compatibility between pd vanilla, extended,<br>
>> desiredata, and vibrez. desiredata made
much larger changes to the<br>
>> GUI-side<br>
>> than pd-l2ork.<br>
>><br>
>> .hc<br>
>><br>
>> Ivica Bukvic wrote:<br>
>>> Why is this such a problem? I did not
break source compatibility (well,<br>
>>> some of it will happen for gui
objects as a result of porting gui to qt)<br>
>>> and for every extended release you
recompile new binaries anyhow and so<br>
>>> does pd-l2ork, except that pd-l2ork
goes even one step further offering a<br>
>>> monolithic release. Besides, pd is
not java and there is no binary<br>
>>> compatibility across different
platforms (except maybe libpd realized in<br>
>>> java, but that is not what we are
talking about here). Under such<br>
>>> circumstances, I see binary
compatibility strictly as a means of<br>
>>> maintaining status quo. As a final
thought, consider that a lot of good<br>
>>> work (as you called it, and I thank
you for your kind words) would not<br>
>> have<br>
>>> been possible without breaking binary
compatibility which, given the<br>
>>> aforesaid circumstances, is a
non-issue to begin with.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Best,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ico<br>
>>> On Sep 25, 2014 10:54 AM,
"Hans-Christoph Steiner" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:hans@at.or.at" target="_blank"
href="mailto:hans@at.or.at">hans@at.or.at</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> You've done a lot of good work in
pd-l2ork, but you also broke binary<br>
>>>> compatibility of libraries for no
good reason. You could have<br>
>> implemented<br>
>>>> that feature in a way that
preserved binary compatibility of libraries.<br>
>>>> You<br>
>>>> still can, and you should.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> .hc<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Ivica Bukvic wrote:<br>
>>>>> Well, I guess you can call me
a "developer," whatever that means--I<br>
>> don't<br>
>>>>> care that much about titles.
Yet, I would argue that as far as low<br>
>> level<br>
>>>>> stuff is concerned in recent
years pd-l2ork has certainly pushed the<br>
>>>>> envelope in terms of core
development. Even the feature that has earned<br>
>>>> me<br>
>>>>> the title in quotations
delves so deep into the core that currently it<br>
>>>>> cannot be implemented in
either vanilla or extended without significant<br>
>>>>> changes even though it
retains full backwards compatibility. I would<br>
>> also<br>
>>>>> argue it is essential and
offers a slew of features that are<br>
>> unavailable<br>
>>>> in<br>
>>>>> any other implementation of
presets.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Pd-l2ork's greatest deterrent
is exclusivity to Linux, which was<br>
>>>> initially<br>
>>>>> a conscious decision to allow
for faster development while addressing<br>
>> the<br>
>>>>> lack of manpower. But that is
about to change once we complete port to<br>
>> Qt<br>
>>>>> library. We already
transitioned to Tkpath quite a while ago which<br>
>>>> allowed<br>
>>>>> us to use a full SVG-based
canvas, so I have no doubt we will be able<br>
>> to<br>
>>>> do<br>
>>>>> this again. Once this is
done, we won't have to circumnavigate<br>
>> exceptions<br>
>>>>> Tk library requires in order
to be compliant with different platforms<br>
>>>> and I<br>
>>>>> would argue in turn that will
result in faster development. So, if you<br>
>>>> are<br>
>>>>> really interested in pushing
the development of non-vanilla pd I think<br>
>>>> you<br>
>>>>> should heed some of
Jonathan's advice and look for ways how community<br>
>> can<br>
>>>>> work together in combining
the "best of" and engaging developers and<br>
>>>>> "developers" alike who have
shown dedication to the cause. But before<br>
>>>> that<br>
>>>>> can be accomplished, the
community should consider agreeing on design<br>
>>>>> choices. For instance,
pd-l2ork came into existence because it focuses<br>
>> on<br>
>>>>> more nimble development at
the expense of potential loss of backwards<br>
>>>>> compatibility (even though
after 4 years of development the only<br>
>>>>> incompatibility we infatuated
is correcting buggy positioning of iemgui<br>
>>>>> objects, which is cosmetic in
nature) because a good chunk of that<br>
>>>>> compatibility stems from
buggy implementations that stuck around long<br>
>>>>> enough that they became a
part of the standard (e.g. iemgui's buggy<br>
>>>>> positioning of objects that
are arbitrarily offset from their x and y<br>
>>>>> positions, as reported by the
pd script), which is unfortunate.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Best,<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Ico<br>
>>>>> On Sep 23, 2014 9:21 AM, "Dan
Wilcox" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:danomatika@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:danomatika@gmail.com">danomatika@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I disagree. Your example
lists what? 2 more developers? I'm talking<br>
>>>> about<br>
>>>>>> "developers" as in people
working the C code, build scripts, tcl/tk<br>
>> etc<br>
>>>> aka<br>
>>>>>> people who could,
theoretically, help push out a new Pd-extended<br>
>>>> release.<br>
>>>>>> True, we have plenty of
people working on externals, but this is a<br>
>>>> problem<br>
>>>>>> for someone who can go
deeper.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I still maintain that the
number of low level developers to overall<br>
>>>> users<br>
>>>>>> (non-developers) is
relatively low.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 6:00
AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at">pd-list-request@lists.iem.at</a>
wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> However, your description
of the user/developer ratio doesn't ring<br>
>> true<br>
>>>> to<br>
>>>>>> me. There's actually a
surplus of developers and development<br>
>> energy-- I<br>
>>>>>> count two implementations
of presets in the last year or two (in<br>
>>>> Pd-l2ork<br>
>>>>>> and the Chocolate et
Coffee lib) which are in addition to however many<br>
>>>>>> already exist on svn and
the Pd forum.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> --------<br>
>>>>>> Dan Wilcox<br>
>>>>>> @danomatika<br>
>>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" href="http://danomatika.com/">danomatika.com</a><br>
>>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" href="http://robotcowboy.com/">robotcowboy.com</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a>
mailing list<br>
>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and
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>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> N �n�r����)em�h�yhiם�w^��<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at"
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>>>><br>
>><br>
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