<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div>Hm, I can't seem to find any proposals on the list. If someone can find them for me (and if there are indeed details there) I'll see if they will work.</div><div><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">-Jonathan</div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> On Wednesday, October 1,
2014 10:51 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans@at.or.at> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><br clear="none">There were at least two proposals back when the change was made. They're in<br clear="none">the archives. I certainly don't remember the details at this point.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">.hc<br clear="none"><div class="yqt1084660895" id="yqtfd89546"><br clear="none">Jonathan Wilkes wrote:<br clear="none">> Um... have you actually read the source for DesireData?<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> If someone wants to write me up a nice, concise, friendly non-sarcastic spec about how to change Pd-l2ork's code so that it can be binary compatible with the same features it currently has, I'll be happy to try implementing it.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> -Jonathan<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> On Thursday, September 25, 2014 12:04 PM, Ivica Bukvic
<<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> ...As strange as it may sound I must admit I've missed our broken conversations/banter. Welcome back, Hans!<br clear="none">> Alas, this time I will have to bow out--so many things to do, so little time. Hope you'll understand.<br clear="none">> Best,<br clear="none">> Ico<br clear="none">> On Sep 25, 2014 11:08 AM, "Hans-Christoph Steiner" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:hans@at.or.at" href="mailto:hans@at.or.at">hans@at.or.at</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">>> You can take an external compiled for the same OS/arch and it loads and works<br clear="none">>> on all of them.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> .hc<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Ivica Bukvic
wrote:<br clear="none">>>> Based on what metrics?<br clear="none">>>> On Sep 25, 2014 11:05 AM, "Hans-Christoph Steiner" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:hans@at.or.at" href="mailto:hans@at.or.at">hans@at.or.at</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">>>><br clear="none">>>>><br clear="none">>>>> For libraries, there is binary compatibility between pd vanilla, extended,<br clear="none">>>>> desiredata, and vibrez. desiredata made much larger changes to the<br clear="none">>>>> GUI-side<br clear="none">>>>> than pd-l2ork.<br clear="none">>>>><br clear="none">>>>> .hc<br clear="none">>>>><br clear="none">>>>> Ivica Bukvic wrote:<br clear="none">>>>>> Why is this such a problem? I did not break source compatibility (well,<br clear="none">>>>>> some of it will happen for gui objects as a result
of porting gui to qt)<br clear="none">>>>>> and for every extended release you recompile new binaries anyhow and so<br clear="none">>>>>> does pd-l2ork, except that pd-l2ork goes even one step further offering a<br clear="none">>>>>> monolithic release. Besides, pd is not java and there is no binary<br clear="none">>>>>> compatibility across different platforms (except maybe libpd realized in<br clear="none">>>>>> java, but that is not what we are talking about here). Under such<br clear="none">>>>>> circumstances, I see binary compatibility strictly as a means of<br clear="none">>>>>> maintaining status quo. As a final thought, consider that a lot of good<br clear="none">>>>>> work (as you called it, and I thank you for your kind words) would not<br clear="none">>>>> have<br clear="none">>>>>> been possible
without breaking binary compatibility which, given the<br clear="none">>>>>> aforesaid circumstances, is a non-issue to begin with.<br clear="none">>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>> Best,<br clear="none">>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>> Ico<br clear="none">>>>>> On Sep 25, 2014 10:54 AM, "Hans-Christoph Steiner" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:hans@at.or.at" href="mailto:hans@at.or.at">hans@at.or.at</a>><br clear="none">>>>> wrote:<br clear="none">>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>> You've done a lot of good work in pd-l2ork, but you also broke binary<br clear="none">>>>>>> compatibility of libraries for no good reason. You could have<br clear="none">>>>> implemented<br clear="none">>>>>>> that feature in a way that preserved binary
compatibility of libraries.<br clear="none">>>>>>> You<br clear="none">>>>>>> still can, and you should.<br clear="none">>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>> .hc<br clear="none">>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>> Ivica Bukvic wrote:<br clear="none">>>>>>>> Well, I guess you can call me a "developer," whatever that means--I<br clear="none">>>>> don't<br clear="none">>>>>>>> care that much about titles. Yet, I would argue that as far as low<br clear="none">>>>> level<br clear="none">>>>>>>> stuff is concerned in recent years pd-l2ork has certainly pushed the<br clear="none">>>>>>>> envelope in terms of core development. Even the feature that has earned<br clear="none">>>>>>> me<br clear="none">>>>>>>> the title in
quotations delves so deep into the core that currently it<br clear="none">>>>>>>> cannot be implemented in either vanilla or extended without significant<br clear="none">>>>>>>> changes even though it retains full backwards compatibility. I would<br clear="none">>>>> also<br clear="none">>>>>>>> argue it is essential and offers a slew of features that are<br clear="none">>>>> unavailable<br clear="none">>>>>>> in<br clear="none">>>>>>>> any other implementation of presets.<br clear="none">>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>> Pd-l2ork's greatest deterrent is exclusivity to Linux, which was<br clear="none">>>>>>> initially<br clear="none">>>>>>>> a conscious decision to allow for faster development while addressing<br clear="none">>>>> the<br
clear="none">>>>>>>> lack of manpower. But that is about to change once we complete port to<br clear="none">>>>> Qt<br clear="none">>>>>>>> library. We already transitioned to Tkpath quite a while ago which<br clear="none">>>>>>> allowed<br clear="none">>>>>>>> us to use a full SVG-based canvas, so I have no doubt we will be able<br clear="none">>>>> to<br clear="none">>>>>>> do<br clear="none">>>>>>>> this again. Once this is done, we won't have to circumnavigate<br clear="none">>>>> exceptions<br clear="none">>>>>>>> Tk library requires in order to be compliant with different platforms<br clear="none">>>>>>> and I<br clear="none">>>>>>>> would argue in turn that will result in faster development. So, if you<br
clear="none">>>>>>> are<br clear="none">>>>>>>> really interested in pushing the development of non-vanilla pd I think<br clear="none">>>>>>> you<br clear="none">>>>>>>> should heed some of Jonathan's advice and look for ways how community<br clear="none">>>>> can<br clear="none">>>>>>>> work together in combining the "best of" and engaging developers and<br clear="none">>>>>>>> "developers" alike who have shown dedication to the cause. But before<br clear="none">>>>>>> that<br clear="none">>>>>>>> can be accomplished, the community should consider agreeing on design<br clear="none">>>>>>>> choices. For instance, pd-l2ork came into existence because it focuses<br clear="none">>>>> on<br clear="none">>>>>>>> more nimble development
at the expense of potential loss of backwards<br clear="none">>>>>>>> compatibility (even though after 4 years of development the only<br clear="none">>>>>>>> incompatibility we infatuated is correcting buggy positioning of iemgui<br clear="none">>>>>>>> objects, which is cosmetic in nature) because a good chunk of that<br clear="none">>>>>>>> compatibility stems from buggy implementations that stuck around long<br clear="none">>>>>>>> enough that they became a part of the standard (e.g. iemgui's buggy<br clear="none">>>>>>>> positioning of objects that are arbitrarily offset from their x and y<br clear="none">>>>>>>> positions, as reported by the pd script), which is unfortunate.<br clear="none">>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>> Best,<br
clear="none">>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>> Ico<br clear="none">>>>>>>> On Sep 23, 2014 9:21 AM, "Dan Wilcox" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:danomatika@gmail.com" href="mailto:danomatika@gmail.com">danomatika@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>> I disagree. Your example lists what? 2 more developers? I'm talking<br clear="none">>>>>>> about<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> "developers" as in people working the C code, build scripts, tcl/tk<br clear="none">>>>> etc<br clear="none">>>>>>> aka<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> people who could, theoretically, help push out a new Pd-extended<br clear="none">>>>>>> release.<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> True, we have plenty of people working on
externals, but this is a<br clear="none">>>>>>> problem<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> for someone who can go deeper.<br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>> I still maintain that the number of low level developers to overall<br clear="none">>>>>>> users<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> (non-developers) is relatively low.<br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 6:00 AM, <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at">pd-list-request@lists.iem.at</a> wrote:<br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>> However, your description of the user/developer ratio doesn't ring<br clear="none">>>>> true<br clear="none">>>>>>>
to<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> me. There's actually a surplus of developers and development<br clear="none">>>>> energy-- I<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> count two implementations of presets in the last year or two (in<br clear="none">>>>>>> Pd-l2ork<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> and the Chocolate et Coffee lib) which are in addition to however many<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> already exist on svn and the Pd forum.<br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>> --------<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> Dan Wilcox<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> @danomatika<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> danomatika.com<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> robotcowboy.com<br
clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a> mailing list<br clear="none">>>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -><br clear="none">>>>>>>>> <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br
clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>>>> N �n�r����)em�h�yhiם�w^��<br clear="none">>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">>>>>>> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a> mailing list<br clear="none">>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -><br clear="none">>>>>>> <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none">>>>>>><br clear="none">>>>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect"
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