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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/04/2015 04:03 AM, Pierre Massat
wrote:<br>
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<div>Dear all,<br>
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Just to give you my modest input on this discussion. <br>
I just looked at IOhannes' last patch and now I got it.
The mistake I made was to believe that print would send
the current value to the console at each step of the
loop (like print in a for loop in Python for instance),
and that the firing order just before the print only
mattered at "micro" level.<br>
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This is actually a great example of what I was talking about with
dogmatic use of trigger vs fanouts.<br>
<br>
It sounds like Pierre was thinking that trigger would fire
"breadth-first" before starting the next iteration of the loop. If<br>
he had employed a trigger in this example, he was under the
impression that [print] would fire each iteration regardless<br>
of which outlet of trigger it was hooked to. He thought he could
put the [print] before OR after the connection triggering the
recursion.<br>
<br>
So even with a dogmatic use of trigger, Pierre would have had a 50%
chance of hitting the bug. And that's the same chance<br>
he had by using the fanout.<br>
<br>
Because he did use a fanout, IOhannes' proclamation to never use
them guided him quickly to the problem. The irony is<br>
if he had used a dogmatic trigger and hit the bug, it would have
taken him longer to find since they are indistinguishable from<br>
normal triggers.<br>
<br>
-Jonathan<br>
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<div>Now of course I understand why I was wrong, after
looking up depth first on the web.<br>
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I've been using Pd regularly for 7 years now, so I don't
consider myself a complete beginner. I use triggers a lot,
and only use fan outs when I think the order of events is
not critical. For 7 years I've believed that triggers only
worked at "micro" level to sequence events that are on the
same "level". Of course now I know that this assumption was
completely wrong, and if I had tried harder to understand
how events are sequenced at "macro" (whole tree) level this
would have been obvious.<br>
<br>
Honestly I think that this particular problem should be
explained much more clearly in the manual, in the depthfirst
example file, and perhaps in the trigger help file. I wonder
how many people in the pd-list would make the same mistake.<br>
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Anyway, than you again for your enlightening responses.<br>
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Pierre.<br>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2015-06-04 8:11 GMT+02:00 Chris
McCormick <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chris@mccormick.cx" target="_blank">chris@mccormick.cx</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On 04/06/15
06:03, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list wrote:<br>
> (And fanouts are more obvious than [trigger] objects
wired in the<br>
wrong order, and especially where recursion is involved.)<br>
<br>
</span>I am confused by this assertion. Can you explain like
I am five?<br>
<br>
Probably my failing but I am unable to imagine a situation
in which<br>
"fanouts are more obvious than [trigger]" and I don't
understand the<br>
qualifier "especially where recursion is involved". How do
you define<br>
"obvious" as used here?<br>
<br>
Last night I spent several hours tracking down a bug that
turned out to<br>
be because I had used a fan-out instead of a trigger. I am
not 100% sure<br>
if this backs up your point or refutes it but either way it
sucked. :)<br>
<br>
I think I will continue to try and make myself use trigger
objects<br>
instead of fan-outs to avoid that type of bug again.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Chris.<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><br>
--<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://mccormick.cx/"
target="_blank">http://mccormick.cx/</a><br>
</span>
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