<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_2880">Hi Fred Jan,</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_2831" dir="ltr">I suppose what I am asking is if the read/write bang outlet happens depth-first <br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_3065" dir="ltr">in Max, or not.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_3197" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_3557" dir="ltr">If it does not, then it means Max _is_ sacrificing predictability for performance <br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_3559" dir="ltr">in that case. As long as we can predict that it will not crash, I think at least having that option would be important for compatibility.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_4013" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_4014" dir="ltr">-Jonathan<br> </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_3066" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_3067" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445088939320_2830"><span></span></div> <br><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div style="display: block;" class="yahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Saturday, October 17, 2015 7:21 AM, Fred Jan Kraan <fjkraan@xs4all.nl> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">On 2015-10-17 06:38 AM, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list wrote:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Hi Ivica,<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> When we discussed the threading feature before, I advocated against it<br clear="none">> since<br clear="none">> it breaks determinism.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">There is an other reason for not adding threading to the coll object. In<br clear="none">the past I did some testing and found it a quite convoluted object. It<br clear="none">allows several types of indices (float, symbol) and has messages<br clear="none">operating on only these subsets. I tried to document this in the help<br clear="none">patch.<br clear="none">Large collections and threading may be useful, but better suited for an<br clear="none">object with a more consistent set of operations, and just one key type<br clear="none">at a time to make results more predictable.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> However, the Max/MSP documentation (as well as the outlet interface itself)<br clear="none">> suggests that Max's implementation is threaded, too. Why else would you<br clear="none">> need a bang to signal when it has finished reading the file, for example?<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Can someone test how it works in practice in Max?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The testing I did was for functionality, and I found cyclone/coll was<br clear="none">very much like Max/coll. Large collection loading was not in scope.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> I'm in favor of the default behavior for the sake of<br clear="none">> backwards-compatibility within<br clear="none">> Pd. But if Max is actually threading the reads/writes, that would make<br clear="none">> this an<br clear="none">> important general feature for Max compatibility.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Compatibility is important, but not at any price. There are several<br clear="none">objects in Max and cyclone which are troubled by<br clear="none">'Swiss-army-knife-syndrome'. Coll is certainly one of them. This makes<br clear="none">improving it low priority for me (with the exception for crashing issues).<br clear="none">Large collection support can be better implemented with a clear,<br clear="none">ortogonal operation set in a new object.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> -Jonathan<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">The latest source is in the SVN repository and at<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://puredata.info/downloads/cyclone/releases" target="_blank">http://puredata.info/downloads/cyclone/releases </a>(you can ignore the<br clear="none">'(unreleased)' postfix. It refuses to go away for now). It contains<br clear="none">several bug-fixes and help-patches based on the Pd-l2ork versions.<br clear="none">Current planning is to leave the SVN repository as it is now and start<br clear="none">a Git repository based on the good work of IOhannes. But for now this is<br clear="none">just planning.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Greetings,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Fred Jan<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> On Friday, October 16, 2015 11:50 PM, Ivica Bukvic <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> cool = coll<br clear="none">> -- <br clear="none">> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.<br clear="none">> Associate Professor<br clear="none">> Computer Music<br clear="none">> ICAT Senior Fellow<br clear="none">> Director -- DISIS, L2Ork<br clear="none">> Virginia Tech<br clear="none">> School of Performing Arts – 0141<br clear="none">> Blacksburg, VA 24061<br clear="none">> (540) 231-6139<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a> <mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a>><br clear="none">> www.performingarts.vt.edu <<a shape="rect" href="http://www.performingarts.vt.edu/" target="_blank">http://www.performingarts.vt.edu/</a>><br clear="none">> disis.icat.vt.edu <<a shape="rect" href="http://disis.icat.vt.edu/" target="_blank">http://disis.icat.vt.edu/</a>><br clear="none">> l2ork.icat.vt.edu <<a shape="rect" href="http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu/" target="_blank">http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu/</a>><br clear="none">> Ico.bukvic.net <<a shape="rect" href="http://ico.bukvic.net/" target="_blank">http://ico.bukvic.net/</a>><br clear="none">> On Oct 16, 2015 11:48 PM, "Ivica Bukvic" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a><br clear="none">> <mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a>>> wrote:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> I am sure this has been covered on this list before--if it is not<br clear="none">> too much of a trouble where can one get the new version of cyclone?<br clear="none">> Also, there are some improvements on pd-l2ork side of things that<br clear="none">> I've implemented that may detract from Max behavior but also offers<br clear="none">> other benefits. For instance, coll object can be threaded and as<br clear="none">> such allows loading of large files without dropping samples, albeit<br clear="none">> at the expense of determinacy, so one in these cases must rely on<br clear="none">> outputting done loading bang signal before working with the cool<br clear="none">> object. This option is fully backwards compatible and the default<br clear="none">> behavior is non-threaded. It would be great if we could have those<br clear="none">> merged so that we don't have to maintain two separate versions of<br clear="none">> the cyclone library.<br clear="none">> Best,<br clear="none">> -- <br clear="none">> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.<br clear="none">> Associate Professor<br clear="none">> Computer Music<br clear="none">> ICAT Senior Fellow<br clear="none">> Director -- DISIS, L2Ork<br clear="none">> Virginia Tech<br clear="none">> School of Performing Arts – 0141<br clear="none">> Blacksburg, VA 24061<br clear="none">> (540) 231-6139<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a> <mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ico@vt.edu" href="mailto:ico@vt.edu">ico@vt.edu</a>><br clear="none">> www.performingarts.vt.edu <<a shape="rect" href="http://www.performingarts.vt.edu/" target="_blank">http://www.performingarts.vt.edu/</a>><br clear="none">> disis.icat.vt.edu <<a shape="rect" href="http://disis.icat.vt.edu/" target="_blank">http://disis.icat.vt.edu/</a>><br clear="none">> l2ork.icat.vt.edu <<a shape="rect" href="http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu/" target="_blank">http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu/</a>><br clear="none">> Ico.bukvic.net <<a shape="rect" href="http://ico.bukvic.net/" target="_blank">http://ico.bukvic.net/</a>><br clear="none">> this has been corrected in the new cyclone library<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> actually, both cartopol~ and poltocar~ were "wrong" in the same way,<br clear="none">> but for extended 0.42 only poltocar~ was corrected, this incomplete<br clear="none">> fix ended up ruining spectral processing that was actually working<br clear="none">> before that.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> get the new cyclone, many objects are being corrected<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> cheers<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> 2015-10-16 18:14 GMT-03:00 Gilberto Agostinho via Pd-list<br clear="none">> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at">pd-list@lists.iem.at</a> <mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at">pd-list@lists.iem.at</a>>>:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Just a little update: the problem is with [cartopol~], its<br clear="none">> rightmost outlet is outputting the correct value multiplied by -1.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> On 16/10/15 22:55, Gilberto Agostinho wrote:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Hello,<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> I believe I found a bug with the objects [cartopol~] and<br clear="none">> [poltocar~]. Basically, if I would connect both outlets of<br clear="none">> [cartopol~] to the inlets of [poltocar~], I would expect to<br clear="none">> receive the same values as I would input. The problem is<br clear="none">> that the output of the second outlet of [poltocar~] is<br clear="none">> multiplied by -1! I tested this with both Pd 0.46.5 and<br clear="none">> pd-extended 0.43.4 (and this bug isn't present in Pd-l2Ork).<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Here is an image of the problem:<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="http://s1.postimg.org/bs79w4d5b/Screenshot_from_2015_10_16_22_50_23.png" target="_blank">http://s1.postimg.org/bs79w4d5b/Screenshot_from_2015_10_16_22_50_23.png</a><br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Is this a known bug?<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Cheers,<br clear="none">> Gilberto<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a> <mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a>> mailing list<br clear="none">> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a> <mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a>> mailing list<br clear="none">> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a> <mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a>> mailing list<div class="yqt3763452208" id="yqtfd70154"><br clear="none">> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a> mailing list<br clear="none">> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none">> <br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at" href="mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at">Pd-list@lists.iem.at</a> mailing list<br clear="none">UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list" target="_blank">http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list</a><br clear="none"></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>