<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>
<div>Hi,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> <span style="color: rgb(50,49,48);font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;">Also this value will be set manually in the code or is there anyway to set it via some config file/some other way?</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(50,49,48);font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;">here's what you usually do:</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>#ifndef HAVE_KEYBOARDNAV</div>
<div>#define HAVE_KEYBOARDNAV 0 /* pick your default value */</div>
<div>#endif</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This makes sure that HAVE_KEYBOARDNAV is always set to a value, but you can override it at compile time by adding "-DHAVE_KEYBOARDNAV <value>" to the preprocessor flags. Since we're using autotools, you (or someone else :-) would also add an option to "configure", e.g. "--enable-keyboardnav" and "--disable-keyboardnav".</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>> <font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:12.0px">What should i do? Change those methods so they're not static anymore?</span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>That's totally fine! Making it non-static just means that other implementation files can use it by forward declaring it (we do this quite a bit in Pd). In your case, you can add the declaration to your header file. Note that there's a risk that evil Pd external developers will find it, so better add a big disclaimer that the implementation may change anytime :-)</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:12.0px"> By the way i wanted to hear more from you guys about the experience when trying the kbdnav prototype! :)</span></font><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:12.0px"><span style="font-family:Verdana"><span style="background-color:#ffffff"><span style="display:inline"> Almost no one commented.</span></span></span></span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:12.0px"><span style="font-family:Verdana"><span style="background-color:#ffffff"><span style="display:inline">To be honest, I forgot about it because I got sucked up in other things, but I'll try it out when I have time! Thanks for the reminder!</span></span></span></span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:12.0px"><span style="font-family:Verdana"><span style="background-color:#ffffff"><span style="display:inline">Christof</span></span></span></span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 20. August 2019 um 05:07 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Henri Augusto Bisognini" <msndohenri@hotmail.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> "pd-dev@lists.iem.at" <pd-dev@lists.iem.at><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [PD-dev] First complete keyboard navigation prototype</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);">Thanks a lot for your input Christof!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);">If i may let me ask a couple of question:</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);">1) I've been wandering through the sources and i'm not sure: where should i put the "<span style="color: rgb(50,49,48);font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;">#def HAVE_KEYBOARDNAV"? Also this value will be set manually in the code or is there anyway to set it via some config file/some other way?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"><span style="color: rgb(50,49,48);font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;">_______________________________________</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"><span style="color: rgb(50,49,48);font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;"><span style="color: rgb(0,0,0);font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;"><span>2) </span></span>Also i've put a big portion of the code in a g_kbdnav.c file a long with it's forward declarations in g_kbdnav.h.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">Why it was in g_editor? Because it uses canvas_connect_with_undo, for example, which is static.</span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">What should i do? Change those methods so they're not static anymore?</span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">Or maybe put a "helper function" inside g_editor.c?<br/>
<br/>
<b>in g_editor.c:</b></span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">void kbdnav_connect_with_undo(t_canvas *x, t_float index1, t_float outno, t_float index2, t_float inno){</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;"> connect_with_undo(x, index1,outno, index2, inno);</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">}</span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;"><b>in g_kbdnav.c:</b></span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">[...]</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">kbdnav_connect_with_undo(...)</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">[...]</span></font><br/>
<br/>
</div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">Or should i do something else?</span></font><br/>
<span style="font-size: 12.0px;">_______</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">By the way i wanted to hear more from you guys about the experience when trying the kbdnav prototype! :)</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;"><span style="font-family: Verdana;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;">Almost no one commented.</span></span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">Best,</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 12.0px;">Henri.</span></font></div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11.0pt;"><b>From:</b> Christof Ressi <christof.ressi@gmx.at></font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> But it appears that actually the size of the struct is deduced <span style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;"> while compiling.<span> S</span></span>o if you write an external it is going to think the canvas struct is the same size as it was in the pd header files that were used during compilation.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>exactly.</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>> <span>When using the pointer to implementation idiom, wouldn't the pointer itself change the size of the struct? </span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span>yes, it will</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span>> You've said something about that not being a problem when you add it as the last member of the struct but i don't understand why and how that would work.</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span>usually, externals shouldn't care about the *size* the t_editor struct (at least I can't think of any use case), so you can get away with adding new fields at the end (although it's certainly not recommended). Note that those headers aren't really public anyway!</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, appending fields conditionally can lead to problems:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><span>struct Foo {</span></div>
<div><span> int a;</span></div>
<div><span>#ifdef FOO_EX</span></div>
<div> int c;</div>
<div><span>#endif</span></div>
<div>};</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Now let's say we need to add another member:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><span>struct Foo {</span></div>
<div><span> int a;</span></div>
<div><span>#ifdef FOO_EX</span></div>
<div> int c;</div>
<div><span>#endif</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span> in b;</span></div>
<div><span>};</span></div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If the host compiles with FOO_EX defined and the client doesn't, the latter will assume a wrong offset for 'b'.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The solution is to add a field for private data *once*. The advantage is that a) we can hide the private data and b) we can extend it without worrying about compatibility:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>struct Foo {</div>
<div> int a;</div>
<div> PrivateFoo *p;</div>
<div>};</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We can still add public members if needed:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>struct Foo {</div>
<div> int a;</div>
<div> void *private;</div>
<div> int b;</div>
<div>};</div>
<div> </div>
<div>'private' points to a private data structure that is not be visible to clients. There you can conditionally enable members without problems:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>struct PrivateFoo {</div>
<div>#ifdef USE_BAR</div>
<div> struct MyFeature feature;</div>
<div>#endif</div>
<div>};</div>
<div> </div>
<div>MyFeature could be in a seperate source file together with your methods and it only gets compiled when needed.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Again, have a look at the "t_canvas_private" struct and the "gl_privatedata" member of "_glist" (aka "t_canvas") and do the same for "_editor", e.g.:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>in g_canvas.h:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>typedef struct _editor {</div>
<div> ...</div>
<div> void *e_privatedata;</div>
<div>} t_editor;</div>
<div> </div>
<div>in g_editor.c:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>#ifdef HAVE_KEYBOARDNAV</div>
<div>#include "g_keyboardnav.h"</div>
<div>#endif</div>
<div> </div>
<div>typedef struct _editor_private {</div>
<div>#ifdef HAVE_KEYBOARDNAV</div>
<div> t_keyboardnav keyboardnav;</div>
<div>#endif</div>
<div>} t_editor_private;</div>
<div> </div>
<div>the "t_keyboardnav" struct is defined in "g_keyboardnav.h" and its methods implemented in "g_keyboardnav.c". Both only get compiled when needed.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Hope this makes sense.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Christof</div>
<div> </div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 16. Juli 2019 um 16:51 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Henri Augusto Bisognini" <msndohenri@hotmail.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> "pd-dev@lists.iem.at" <pd-dev@lists.iem.at><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [PD-dev] First complete keyboard navigation prototype</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"><span>Okay, just help me check if i got it right.</span>
<div> </div>
<div>At first i was thinking that when externals, for any reason, used the size of the canvas struct <span style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;">(or any other)</span> it would do so in real time. Like calling sizeof() and stuff.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>But it appears that actually the size of the struct is deduced <span style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;"> while compiling.<span> S</span></span>o if you write an external it is going to think the canvas struct is the same size as it was in the pd header files that were used during compilation.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is that it?</div>
<div> </div>
<span>I don't think i quite get something. When using the pointer to implementation idiom, wouldn't the pointer itself change the size of the struct? You've said something about that not being a problem when you add it as the last member of the struct but i don't understand why and how that would work.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);"><span>(I don't have a formal background on programming so forgive me if thats obvious or something.)</span></div>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11.0pt;"><b>De:</b> Christof Ressi <christof.ressi@gmx.at><br/>
<b>Enviado:</b> sábado, 15 de junho de 2019 17:11<br/>
<b>Para:</b> Henri Augusto Bisognini<br/>
<b>Cc:</b> pd-dev@lists.iem.at<br/>
<b>Assunto:</b> Aw: Re: [PD-dev] First complete keyboard navigation prototype</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi, as IOhannes said, "g_canvas.h" is semi-public in a sense that some externals use it (e.g. iemguts). So unless it is absolutely necessary, we should avoid breaking binary compatibility.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>If the e_kbdnav member is only conditionally enabled with an #ifdef, existing externals (or those not compiled with key-nav-support) will see a different size of t_editor. This is not much of a problem as long as e_kbdnav is the last member of t_editor, but as soon as we add another member, we might run into problems, since this last field will be at a different offset.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think the solution is simple: just add a "void *e_private" member which points to some private data where we can put all stuff which we don't want to expose the header. (This is called the "PIMPL idiom"). e_kbdnav would be the first member of such private data.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>IOhannes actually did this with the "gl_privatedata" member in t_canvas to hide the undo queue implemention. The "t_canvas_private" struct currently only has a "t_undo" member but it's possible to add/remove/rearrange members at will without having to think about binary compatibility issues because it's not in a header file.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Christof</div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 15. Juni 2019 um 19:58 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Henri Augusto Bisognini" <msndohenri@hotmail.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> "pd-dev@lists.iem.at" <pd-dev@lists.iem.at><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [PD-dev] First complete keyboard navigation prototype</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri , Helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);">Please excuse my ignorance on that matter but could you give me a brief explanation of the problem at hand?</div>
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<div id="x_x_divRplyFwdMsg"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11.0pt;"><b>De:</b> Pd-dev <pd-dev-bounces@lists.iem.at> em nome de IOhannes m zmölnig <zmoelnig@iem.at><br/>
<b>Enviado:</b> sexta-feira, 14 de junho de 2019 04:37<br/>
<b>Para:</b> pd-dev@lists.iem.at<br/>
<b>Assunto:</b> Re: [PD-dev] First complete keyboard navigation prototype</font>
<div> </div>
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<div class="x_x_BodyFragment">
<div class="x_x_PlainText"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">On 6/13/19 7:34 PM, Henri Augusto Bisognini wrote:<br/>
> Also, in g_canvas.h, inside the "struct _editor" there is a "struct _kbdnav" member. This is the struct that contains the data used in the keyboard navigation.<br/>
><br/>
<br/>
i haven't looked at the actual code, but what you describe here, is that<br/>
you are actually changing the size of a quasi-public struct and thus the<br/>
memory layout as presented to externals.<br/>
<br/>
which means that a version of Pd that has the keyboard-navigation<br/>
enabled is (partly) *binary-incompatible* with a version of Pd that does<br/>
not have the keyboard-navigation enabled.<br/>
<br/>
bummer :-(<br/>
<br/>
gfmadr<br/>
IOhannes</span></font><br/>
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