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    <p>> Yes, but I figured that when a connection is made, PD
      rebuilds a <i><b>flattened </b></i>graph,</p>
    <p>Pd *could* flatten the graph - but only if the subpatch is not
      reblocked, upsampled or overlapped. For consistency and simplicity
      it makes more sense to always treat subpatches as unit generators.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Christof<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 26.02.2020 00:52, William Huston
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAV8_8kZWXZLzNZzxgEEgS-gKQv2a44iEfZgbpY0dSG3q50=Dw@mail.gmail.com">
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          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 6:43
            PM Christof Ressi <<a
              href="mailto:info@christofressi.com" target="_blank"
              moz-do-not-send="true">info@christofressi.com</a>>
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
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              <p>I think you got it now :-)</p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div>Well that is very disappointing.  <br>
          </div>
          <div>I hope someone is collecting all of these idiosyncrasies
            and publishes</div>
          <div>a document for advanced PD programmers.  <br>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>I'm about 5 years into PD, and this surprises me. <br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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              <p>In Pd every object is a black box (= the concept of the
                "unit generator"), it doesn't care what's going on
                inside. </p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div>Yes, but I figured that when a connection is made, PD
            rebuilds a <i><b>flattened </b></i>graph,</div>
          <div>where only basic computational elements (atoms, builtin
            operators, externals, etc)</div>
          <div>exist... and any concept of a subpatch or abstraction is
            lost. <br>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Anyway, the workaround is simple enough. Thanks!</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>BH<br>
          </div>
          <div> </div>
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              <p>DSP computation starts from the outside. An object can
                be computed when all its input dependencies have been
                computed. This will never be the case when one of its
                inlets is in some way connected to one of its outlets -
                for reason which are hopefully obvious.<br>
              </p>
            </div>
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          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div> </div>
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              <p> </p>
              <p>The workaround is to use a pair of [s~]/[r~] or
                [throw~]/[catch~].<br>
              </p>
              <p>Christof<br>
              </p>
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                                        <div>--<br>
                                          William Huston:  <a
                                            href="mailto:WilliamAHuston@gmail.com"
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          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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              <p> </p>
              <div>On 26.02.2020 00:26, William Huston wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div dir="ltr">> in your example with the effect
                  outside your abstraction you can literally *see* the
                  DSP loop, why are you surprised?
                  <div>
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                                              <div>You have got to be
                                                kidding me!!!</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>So are you saying....</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>If I have an audio
                                                abstraction FOO, <br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>with has 4 inlets~
                                                and 4 outlets~.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>and I have another
                                                BAR, <br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>with 2 inlets~ and 2
                                                outlets~, <br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>and I try to connect
                                                a pair of FOO's outlets~
                                                to BAR's inlets~, <br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>and BAR's outlets to
                                                a pair of FOO's inlet's,
                                                <br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>that <b>PD throws a
                                                  "DSP loop error" <u><i>whether
                                                      or not there</i></u></b></div>
                                              <div><b><u><i>is in fact
                                                      an audio loop in
                                                      the actual graph</i></u>?</b>??<br>
                                              </div>
                                              <br>
                                              <div>And there is not a
                                                way to override this
                                                behavior??<br>
                                              </div>
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                                              </div>
                                              <div>--<br>
                                                William Huston:  <a
                                                  href="mailto:WilliamAHuston@gmail.com"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">WilliamAHuston@gmail.com</a><br>
                                                Binghamton NY<br>
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                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 25, 2020
                    at 6:01 PM Christof Ressi <<a
                      href="mailto:info@christofressi.com"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">info@christofressi.com</a>>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                    0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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                    <div>
                      <p>A DSP loop is when signal connections form a
                        loop. Pd can't look into objects so it just
                        treats them as black boxes. It's as simple as
                        that.</p>
                      <p>After all, in your example with the effect
                        outside your abstraction you can literally *see*
                        the DSP loop, why are you surprised? And in your
                        other example with the effect inside your
                        abstraction you don't get a DSP loop because,
                        well, there's is no DSP loop.</p>
                      <p>I see where you're coming from. In the analog
                        world your two examples are indeed equivalent,
                        but in Pd they are *not*.<br>
                      </p>
                      <p>Christof<br>
                      </p>
                      <div>On 25.02.2020 23:46, Christof Ressi wrote:<br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote type="cite">
                        <p> </p>
                        <blockquote type="cite">especially because of
                          additional potential delay of inlet~/outlet~.</blockquote>
                        inlet~/outlet~ does *not* add a delay (unless
                        when going to a larger blocksize).
                        <p> </p>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                            style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                            <div>But you're using [r~] and [s~] which is
                              not the same as direct signal connections.
                              The former can act like a short delay
                              line. Please read
                              "3.audio.examples/G05.execution.order".</div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          Christof, Yes! Exactly!</blockquote>
                        I think you misunderstood. With "former" I meant
                        [r~]/[s~]. [inlet~]/[outlet~] does not add a
                        delay.<br>
                        <p> </p>
                        <blockquote type="cite">Also, believe me, r~/s~
                          has nothing to do with it. </blockquote>
                        Believe me, it certainly has. Can you finally
                        share a minimal test patch, please? I would like
                        to see an actual patch where you get an
                        unexpected DSP loop error.<br>
                        <p>Christof<br>
                        </p>
                        <div>On 25.02.2020 23:40, William Huston wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue,
                              Feb 25, 2020 at 6:14 AM Christof Ressi
                              <<a
                                href="mailto:info@christofressi.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">info@christofressi.com</a>>
                              wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <div class="gmail_quote">
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                  <p>@Dan<br>
                                  </p>
                                  <blockquote type="cite">As far as I
                                    recall, going between abstraction to
                                    parent patch via inlet~/outlet~
                                    introduces a block delay, hence no
                                    error</blockquote>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div>Dan, correction-- that is the exact
                                circumstance where I *am* getting the
                                error. <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>So now I think you are beginning to
                                see why I think it's unexpected,</div>
                              <div>especially because of additional
                                potential delay of inlet~/outlet~.</div>
                              <br>
                              <div>Dan also wrote:</div>
                              <div>> As the error says, you shouldn't
                                create a direct feedback loop with
                                signal cords. <br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Let me try to explain again:</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><span
                                  style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0)"><b>I
                                    have taken a WORKING CIRCUIT--</b></span></div>
                              <div><b> </b>
                                <div>(a simple stereo delay circuit,
                                  with cris-cross L/R feedback <br>
                                </div>
                                <div>implemented with [delwrite~] +
                                  [vd~]) <br>
                                </div>
                                <div><b><span
                                      style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0)">--
                                      which DOES NOT produce a "DSP Loop
                                      Error", </span><br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b>pulled a Null (straight-wire)
                                    Filter <br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b>(which had been installed in the
                                    feedback path)<br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b>and moved it externally to the
                                    abstraction</b></div>
                                <div><b>(up to the parent patch), via
                                    outlet~/inlet~,</b></div>
                                <div><b>which, if anything ADDS
                                    additional block delays, <br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b>yet this produces "DSP Loop
                                    Error". <br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b><br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b>Clearly (the way I see it) <br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b>the logic behind detecting "DSP
                                    Loop Error" condition<br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b>has a bug.</b></div>
                                <br>
                                <div><b>I believe this is a false error,</b></div>
                                <div><b>because as I have stated--</b></div>
                                <div><b>the circuit HAD been working!</b></div>
                                <div><b><br>
                                  </b></div>
                                <div><b>All I did was add the potential
                                    for additional</b></div>
                                <div><b>blocks of delay on the feedback
                                    path. <br>
                                  </b></div>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                <div>But you're using [r~] and [s~]
                                  which is not the same as direct signal
                                  connections. The former can act like a
                                  short delay line. Please read
                                  "3.audio.examples/G05.execution.order".</div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Christof, Yes! Exactly!<br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Added delay should REDUCE the chance
                                of a "DSP Loop Detected"!</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Also, believe me, r~/s~ has nothing
                                to do with it. <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>My original patch was extremely ugly,
                                due to criss-crossed feedback.</div>
                              <div>I only implemented with r~/s~ to
                                clean up the patch to share. <br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Thanks everyone!</div>
                              <div>BH<br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                <div>
                                  <p>Christof<br>
                                  </p>
                                  <div>On 25.02.2020 11:42, Dan Wilcox
                                    wrote:<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote type="cite"> As far as I
                                    recall, going between abstraction to
                                    parent patch via inlet~/outlet~
                                    introduces a block delay, hence no
                                    error
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <blockquote type="cite">
                                        <div dir="auto">
                                          <div dir="auto">
                                            <div dir="auto">Third patch
                                              is like the second, only
                                              the effect has been moved
                                              out of the abstraction,
                                              and into the parent patch.
                                              ONLY HERE do I get the DSP
                                              loop error. </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      Signal loop in a single patch
                                      without abstractions = error. Pd
                                      has no way to read and write to
                                      the same signal buffer in the
                                      patch at the same time *without*
                                      some tiny delay.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <blockquote type="cite">
                                        <div dir="auto">
                                          <div dir="auto">
                                            <div dir="auto"><b
                                                style="font-family:sans-serif">The
                                                point is the last two
                                                patches have (or should
                                                have) an identical
                                                graph! </b></div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>At the lower level, they don't.
                                      What happens if you put part of
                                      the path inside a subpath which
                                      uses inlet~/outlet~?</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <blockquote type="cite">
                                          <div>On Feb 25, 2020, at 11:36
                                            AM, William Huston <<a
                                              href="mailto:williamahuston@gmail.com"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">williamahuston@gmail.com</a>>
                                            wrote:</div>
                                          <br>
                                          <div>
                                            <div dir="auto">
                                              <div dir="auto">
                                                <div dir="auto">First
                                                  abstraction, simple
                                                  stereo delay:  2 delay
                                                  lines, variable
                                                  feedback L->R,
                                                  R->L.</div>
                                                <div dir="auto"> This <b>works</b>,
                                                  no DSP loop error. <br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div dir="auto">Second
                                                  abstraction contains
                                                  an effect in the
                                                  feedback path. (in my
                                                  simple example, it's
                                                  just a null wire: In-L
                                                  passes to Out-L, etc).
                                                  Again this <b>works</b>,
                                                  no DSP error. </div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div dir="auto">Third
                                                  patch is like the
                                                  second, only the
                                                  effect has been moved
                                                  out of the
                                                  abstraction, and into
                                                  the parent patch. ONLY
                                                  HERE do I get the DSP
                                                  loop error. </div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><b
                                                    style="font-family:sans-serif">The
                                                    point is the last
                                                    two patches have (or
                                                    should have) an
                                                    identical graph! </b><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><b
                                                    style="font-family:sans-serif"><br>
                                                  </b></div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><font
                                                    face="sans-serif">It
                                                    really seems like a
                                                    bug to me. </font></div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><span
                                                    style="font-family:sans-serif"><br>
                                                  </span></div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><span
                                                    style="font-family:sans-serif">I'll
                                                    upload a test patch
                                                    a little later. </span></div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><span
                                                    style="font-family:sans-serif"><br>
                                                  </span></div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><font
                                                    face="sans-serif">Thanks, </font></div>
                                                <div dir="auto"><font
                                                    face="sans-serif">BH</font></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                      </div>
                                      <br>
                                      <div>
                                        <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">--------</div>
                                        <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Dan
                                          Wilcox</div>
                                        <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a
href="http://twitter.com/danomatika" target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">@danomatika</a></div>
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style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a
                                            href="http://danomatika.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">danomatika.com</a></div>
                                        <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a
href="http://robotcowboy.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">robotcowboy.com</a></div>
                                        <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
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