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<p>I very much agree with your points.</p>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite">If we lump "user space" and "internal"
messaging together in an open manual, then they should be
clearly delineated with special placed on emphasizing what
things are more or less stable and what things are not. Then the
user can decide how they want to proceed. </blockquote>
As you say, it's better to document all of it and at the same time
make it clear what is public and what is private. And figure out
how to deal with the large gray area in between :-)</p>
<p>Christof<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28.11.2021 00:37, Dan Wilcox wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1E27379B-F23D-4BCD-8EC3-1E90B26AEAD9@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Howdy all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My feeling on this is:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">1. Recognize that, despite using "private" or
"unstable" internal APIs, people have been using/abusing them
for years. (So far, I feel we have been recognizing this by
being careful not to break things, more or less.)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">2. We should document all internal messaging, at
least for the sake of developer documentation. If we lump
"user space" and "internal" messaging together in an open
manual, then they should be clearly delineated with special
placed on emphasizing what things are more or less stable and
what things are not. Then the user can decide how they want to
proceed. I don't see a problem if people want to play with the
internals on their own machine and crash Pd... that's half the
fun for such activities anyway (learning).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">3. We should get a poll of which internal messages
are currently in use and consider which of these could be
moved into "user space" and/or replaced by a better API. I
believe this thread is already providing a good list...</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">4. Open a technical discussion on supporting
"dynamic patching" officially. It's clearly very useful even
if clunky through the current workarounds. Even with [clone]
there are still many use cases...<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 28, 2021, at 12:25 AM, <a
href="mailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pd-list-request@lists.iem.at</a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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inline !important;" class="">Message: 1</span><br
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021
20:20:49 +0100</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px;
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">From: Jean-Yves Gratius
<</span><a href="mailto:jyg@gumo.fr"
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px;
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">jyg@gumo.fr</a><span
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0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">></span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
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text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">To:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
href="mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at" style="font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
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start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pd-list@lists.iem.at</a><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">Subject: Re: [PD]
documenting messages to/from Pd and dynamic patching</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">Message-ID: <</span><a
href="mailto:f41bab20-e831-3f04-52fb-ba273b1e0daf@gumo.fr"
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px;
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font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">f41bab20-e831-3f04-52fb-ba273b1e0daf@gumo.fr</a><span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
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text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">></span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">On 27/11/2021 17:19,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
href="mailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at"
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pd-list-request@lists.iem.at</a><span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class=""><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration:
none;" class="">ForwardedMessage.eml<br class="">
<br class="">
Subject:<br class="">
Re: [PD] documenting messages to/from Pd and dynamic
patching<br class="">
From:<br class="">
Christof Ressi <<a
href="mailto:info@christofressi.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">info@christofressi.com</a>><br
class="">
Date:<br class="">
27/11/2021 ? 17:01<br class="">
<br class="">
To:<br class="">
Pd-List <<a href="mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pd-list@lists.iem.at</a>><br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Two examples that come to my mind:<br class="">
<br class="">
1) [iemguts/canvasselect] allows to (de)select objects
simply by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
index. No need to emulate mouse selection with "mouse"
and "mouseup".<br class="">
<br class="">
2) canvases/objects can be moved around with
[iemguts/canvasposition]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
resp. [iemguts/canvasobjectposition]<br class="">
<br class="">
Are there any other use cases for "mouse" and
"mouseup"?<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">Hi. My 2 cents</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">Personally, I use mouse
and mouseup messages to forward multitouch<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">events into the patch,
received? from my multitouch linux laptop.</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">If those messages were
blocked, all my multitouch ecosystem would be out<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">of order :-) .</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">--------</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Dan Wilcox</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a
href="http://twitter.com/danomatika" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">@danomatika</a></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a
href="http://danomatika.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">danomatika.com</a></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a
href="http://robotcowboy.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">robotcowboy.com</a></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br>
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