[PD-dev] $0 in messages, was: multiple $arg-expansion

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Jan 15, 2006, at 6:49 PM, Thomas Grill wrote:

> Hey all,
>
>>   The only advantage I can see to the addition of # args is shortcuts.
>
> that's one advantage and it's an important one. When building more  
> complex messages the [unpack], [f $x], [pack], [msg x $1 y $2(  thing  
> is a real pain, both for performance and for the eye.

Programming with Pd is done with connecting objects and message boxes,  
so I think that we should stay true to this instead of making shortcuts  
which are more suited to a text language.  I have done a lot of complex  
message handling in Pd I haven't found this to be a major hinderance.   
What is a major hinderance is the list vs. undefined set quandary.   
Much if not most of this problem was caused by the shortcut of allowing  
sets starting with a  float to be lists.  So shortcuts can do real  
harm.

>> But that would be at the expense of syntactic and logical simplicity,  
>> and my guess is that it would make code harder to read rather than  
>> easier.
>>
>
> i can't follow that argument. I just returned from a beginner's  
> workshop and the fact that $x means different things in the same patch  
> was obviously confusing for the people. It's much easier to read and  
> understand that $x are always message parameters and #x are always  
> abstraction arguments.

I suppose the visual nature of Pd makes seeing $1 in a quick scan  
confusing whether its in an object box or a message box.  But because  
beginners find something confusing is not reason enough to change it in  
my book.  If people have real problems learning it, then its a problem.  
  Many aspects of programming are confusing to beginners, but they pay  
off in the long run.  I found the messaging in object oriented  
programming quite confusing when I started, functions seem more  
straightforward.

Having # and $ could cause new confusions for beginners and others,  
like forgetting when to use # and when to use $.  I think once people  
understand Pd's messaging, then it becomes much easier to read $ args.

.hc

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