[PD-dev] 0.43 omission: 'set-startup' and 'set-path'

Miller Puckette mpuckett at imusic1.ucsd.edu
Thu Jul 22 05:23:35 CEST 2010 

Right about the lappend thing -- but if the whole thing goes into a single
message it can break buffer size limits in Pd (that's the reason I broke it
up).

I think the values can stay insync unless pd somehow is initiating changes
outside the dialog mechanism -- and I'd suggest not doing that for other
reasons.

OTOH, the path is always the global path, not the one belonging to any
specific patch - so it's probably useless to the gui anyway, hmm.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 11:16:20PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I just realized that problem with the lappend looking at the  
> code, the solution is to make set-path and set-startup build up the  
> whole string in C space, then send it in a single  
> sys_vgui("set ::pd_path ...").  I'm going to dig into this and  
> IOhannes' jack/network startup troubles tomorrow.
> 
> The plugins can of course access those variables whenever, but if they  
> are blank and/or not in sync with the values that 'pd' has, they are  
> not very useful.  The problem with the head of git is that ::pd_path  
> and ::pd_startup are only ever set when you open their respective  
> dialog panels.  As far as I can tell, they are not set to the same  
> values that 'pd' has as part of the startup procedure.
> 
> .hc
> 
> On Jul 21, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
> 
> >I meant to keep it on dev -- must have hit the wrong flavor of  
> >'reply' by
> >accident, will try to remember to CC dev back in.
> >
> >I think pd_path is sent to tcl when pd starts up, and then afterward
> >any changes to it are initiated by the gui (which can then simply  
> >store
> >the new value it sends down to Pd, if it's going to need it for  
> >anything).
> >This is all OK unless there's some mechanism I don't know about for  
> >changing
> >the path from within pd (in which case I'd propose that pd send the  
> >new
> >value up to the GUI on its own initiative).
> >
> >Ditto the 'startup' path -- pd volunteers it at startup so the GUI  
> >always
> >knows what it is.
> >
> >Problem with waiting for pd_path is that pd sends the path up in a  
> >sequence
> >of messages like:
> >
> >set ::pd_path {}
> >lappend ::pd_path {foo}
> >
> >and you have no way of ascertaining which 'lappend' terminates the  
> >sequence so
> >that ::pd_path is now correct.  In my version, when you see  
> >"pdtk_pd_startup"
> >you know that  ::pd_path and  ::startup_libraries are no longer  
> >going to get
> >any lappends.
> >
> >Unless I'm really missing something, plugins (or anyone else) can  
> >access
> >::pd_path and  ::startup_libraries at will, no?
> >
> >cheers
> >Miller
> >
> >
> >On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:28:01PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner  
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>Quick question, do you prefer to keep this off pd-dev?  I'd prefer it
> >>on the list so others can weigh in.
> >>
> >>Removing the set-startup almost completely breaks the loading of
> >>plugins, for example. pd_path is also used in the Help Browser so  
> >>that
> >>it will display all libraries that are installed anywhere in the
> >>path.  It also means that plugins can't search the path like 'pd'  
> >>can,
> >>so things like a installed class browser plugin would no longer be
> >>possible.
> >>
> >>I am not married to the implementation, but I do see the  
> >>functionality
> >>as essential.  I don't see the difference between waiting on
> >>"pdtk_pd_startup" to be sent via a network socket,  or waiting the
> >>contents of pd_path being sent over the same network socket. You can
> >>even set pd_path to blank and that will trigger the vwait properly.
> >>So your current startup procedure relies on:
> >>
> >>   sys_vgui("pdtk_pd_startup %d %d %d {%s} %s %s {%s} %s\n",
> >>
> >>the pd-gui-rewrite/0.43 startup procedure relies on:
> >>
> >>   sys_gui("set ::pd_path {}\n");
> >>
> >>Seems pretty close to me.
> >>
> >>.hc
> >>
> >>On Jul 21, 2010, at 9:54 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hmm -- the only place I saw set-startup was in the startup tcl  
> >>>code --
> >>>which I think could have only been called once.  Is there an easy- 
> >>>to-
> >>>exhibit
> >>>problem in the code in sf/git (or is the problem in another branch
> >>>somewhere?)
> >>>
> >>>Anyhow I'm just about sure there's no way code could work robustly
> >>>waiting on
> >>>pd_path... some other means of syncing would be needed.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>cheers
> >>>M
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 04:21:00PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> >>>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>Its already being actively used in the GUI rewrite, which is
> >>>>currently
> >>>>somewhat broken without it.  I think the only client for that  
> >>>>message
> >>>>really would be pd-gui, and I'd happily do the work to change it if
> >>>>need
> >>>>be.  That's a much better option than omitting it.
> >>>>
> >>>>.hc
> >>>>
> >>>>Miller Puckette wrote:
> >>>>>My usual strategy on stuff like this is wait until someone is
> >>>>>actively
> >>>>>using it - because one's guess as to how the feature should work
> >>>>>is never
> >>>>>how it's really needed when the time comes and then you're stuck
> >>>>>maintaining
> >>>>>two different versions of the same thing :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>M
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 12:15:30AM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> >>>>>wrote:
> >>>>>>Yeah, I added the "pd set-startup", etc. stuff to m_glob.c and
> >>>>>>s_path.c.  Regardless of the startup procedure, I think pd-gui
> >>>>>>should
> >>>>>>be able to request state from pd so it can stay in sync.  A  
> >>>>>>dialog
> >>>>>>shouldn't be required to get this info.  This is akin to  
> >>>>>>IOhannes'
> >>>>>>idea that pd-gui's state should be settable by pd at any point
> >>>>>>while
> >>>>>>running.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Then it makes sense to reuse the same procedure for getting the
> >>>>>>state
> >>>>>>in the startup procedure, rather than having a custom method for
> >>>>>>only
> >>>>>>the startup procedure.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>.hc
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Hi Hans --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>the "vwait" line didn't seem correct to me (could return right
> >>>>>>>after
> >>>>>>>Pd says to clear pd_path, before the other messages bubble up to
> >>>>>>>append
> >>>>>>>the various directories to it).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I ended up fixing Pd to volunteer the path and startup stuff
> >>>>>>>before
> >>>>>>>sending
> >>>>>>>pdtk_pd_startup so that none of the tcl side of things should be
> >>>>>>>needed
> >>>>>>>any longer.  OTOH if you were planning to send "pd set-startup"
> >>>>>>>etc at
> >>>>>>>some later point in the tcl code, this would need to be
> >>>>>>>supported in
> >>>>>>>Pd...(?)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>cheers
> >>>>>>>Miller
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 03:58:24PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> >>>>>>>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>Hey Miller,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I just noticed that you left out a key part of pd-gui-rewrite  
> >>>>>>>>in
> >>>>>>>>0.43.  There is the 'set-startup' and 'set-path' messages which
> >>>>>>>>allows
> >>>>>>>>pd-gui to get the state of those things without having to open
> >>>>>>>>the
> >>>>>>>>respective preference dialog panels. The changes are in
> >>>>>>>>m_glob.c and
> >>>>>>>>s_path.c, as well as these lines in pd-gui.tcl:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>pdsend "pd set-startup" ;# get ::startup_libraries
> >>>>>>>>and ::startup_flags lists
> >>>>>>>>pdsend "pd set-path"    ;# get the ::pd_path list
> >>>>>>>>vwait ::pd_path ;# wait for 'pd' to respond
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>.hc
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>"We have nothing to fear from love and commitment." - New York
> >>>>>>>>Senator
> >>>>>>>>Diane Savino, trying to convince the NY Senate to pass a gay
> >>>>>>>>marriage
> >>>>>>>>bill
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>Pd-dev mailing list
> >>>>>>>>Pd-dev at iem.at
> >>>>>>>>http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Programs should be written for people to read, and only
> >>>>>>incidentally
> >>>>>>for machines to execute.
> >>>>>>- from Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>"We have nothing to fear from love and commitment." - New York  
> >>Senator
> >>Diane Savino, trying to convince the NY Senate to pass a gay marriage
> >>bill
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The arc of history bends towards justice.     - Dr. Martin Luther  
> King, Jr.
>

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