[PD-dev] packaging the pddp docs

[Jonathan Wilkes]

--- On Tue, 6/28/11, Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at> wrote:

> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> Subject: Re: [PD-dev] packaging the pddp docs
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" <jancsika at yahoo.com>
> Cc: pd-dev at iem.at
> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 6:33 PM
> 
> On Jun 28, 2011, at 11:43 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 6/28/11, Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> wrote:
> > 
> >> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> >> Subject: Re: [PD-dev] packaging the pddp docs
> >> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" <jancsika at yahoo.com>
> >> Cc: pd-dev at iem.at
> >> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 5:11 PM
> >> 
> >> On Jun 28, 2011, at 12:55 AM, Jonathan Wilkes
> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> --- On Tue, 6/28/11, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> <hans at at.or.at>
> >> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [PD-dev] packaging the pddp
> docs
> >>>> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" <jancsika at yahoo.com>
> >>>> Cc: pd-dev at iem.at
> >>>> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 6:27 AM
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Jun 27, 2011, at 6:45 PM, Jonathan
> Wilkes
> >> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> --- On Mon, 6/27/11, Hans-Christoph
> Steiner
> >> <hans at at.or.at>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
> <hans at at.or.at>
> >>>>>> Subject: [PD-dev] packaging the
> pddp docs
> >>>>>> To: pd-dev at iem.at
> >>>>>> Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 9:21
> PM
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Now that the core Pd docs (i.e.
> >> /usr/lib/pd/doc/*)
> >>>> are
> >>>>>> split out into a
> >>>>>> separate Debian package, I think
> it could
> >> make
> >>>> sense to
> >>>>>> package the PDDP
> >>>>>> docs in a kind of mirror or
> replacement
> >> package.
> >>>>>> Something like
> >>>>>> pddp-doc.  Jonathan, in
> particular, I
> >> was
> >>>> thinking
> >>>>>> that since you have
> >>>>>> wanted to work on all the patches
> there,
> >> we could
> >>>> set it up
> >>>>>> so the
> >>>>>> pddp-doc package mirrors the
> whole
> >>>> /usr/lib/pd/doc*
> >>>>>> directory and patch
> >>>>>> structure, have this in SVN, git,
> or
> >> whatever
> >>>>>> somewhere.  Then people
> >>>>>> could choose the pddp-doc package
> if they
> >> so
> >>>> choose.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> The PDDP docs I did are all for
> vanilla
> >> objects
> >>>> (exceptions are
> >>>>> expr family, and the other "vanilla"
> >> extras).  If
> >>>> a new user clicks
> >>>>> "Help" on a vanilla object, it should
> show the
> >> revised
> >>>> PDDP help
> >>>>> patch by default.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> So instead of what you propose, please
> make
> >> something
> >>>> like a
> >>>>> legacy-vanilla-help package. 
> That way,
> >> if
> >>>> someone really prefers
> >>>>> the old docs, they can still find
> them, and we
> >> won't
> >>>> waste new users' time
> >>>>> by forcing them to use outdated and
> >> unmaintained docs
> >>>> (until they figure
> >>>>> out they're supposed to download a
> separate
> >> package
> >>>> for the current
> >>>>> vanilla help patches, which nobody has
> to do
> >> for any
> >>>> of the external
> >>>>> packages).
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> -Jonathan
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> I agree that the PDDP docs are much
> better, that's
> >> why I
> >>>> want to get them out there more. 
> Part of
> >> packaging is
> >>>> representing the upstream as it is and
> letting the
> >> user
> >>>> decide.  So I think it makes sense to
> keep
> >> puredata-doc
> >>>> as what's included in the official
> tarball.
> >> As for
> >>>> Pd-extended, I think it should still use
> the PDDP
> >> docs, so
> >>>> like you say, showing the PDDP docs by
> default.
> >>> 
> >>> Ok.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> So we just need a plan of attack.  If you can
> lead up
> >> this project, I
> >> will help as much as I can.  Do you want to
> include
> >> the whole docs
> >> tree in the doc/pddp SVN?

I'm already kind of doing that with pd-l2ork.  I've revised Miller's 
control/audio/ds tutorials.  Pd-l2ork has fixed the crasher bug when 
a patch closes itself, so I've got a navigation toolbar in those tutorials 
that is currently incompatible with pd-extended/vanilla.

> Or something
> else?  It
> >> seems to me the
> >> easiest would be to start a separate repository
> for them,
> >> like on
> >> SourceForge, pddp is available: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pddp
> >> 
> >> Or we could reorganize doc/pddp in the pure-data
> SVN.
> >> 
> >> .hc
> > 
> > Since Pd-extended and Pd-l2ork already use the PDDP
> docs, the only thing
> > we're talking about here is providing PDDP docs for
> people who use
> > vanilla, and that's a simple commit.  So I don't
> see why I have to head up
> > some new project and learn Debian packaging in order
> to meander toward (or
> > around) that goal.
> 
> Its not a new project. I see it as a better representation
> of what's currently happening.  You are doing great
> work with the PDDP docs, I think we can make the structure
> of that project work better for you.  Having it as a
> distinct entity means you are less encumbered by others when
> making decisions about what should happen with PDDP. 
> That distinct entity can be either a folder in the pure-data
> SVN, a separate SourceForge project, or whatever we think is
> easiest.  I think one of the first two options would
> work well.
> 
> I'm happy to do all of the Debian packaging, that part
> would be easy for me.

So what is it you want me to do?

> 
> > The only problem is with pddplink and helplink
> dependencies, which should
> > just be included in vanilla as internal objects. 
> Is there a good reason
> > why they aren't?
> 
> That's something you'd have to take up with Miller, only he
> makes the call there.  Honestly, I think we're better
> off keeping things as distinct libraries.  Miller has
> limited time to spend on Pd, so the more stuff that's in Pd,
> the thinner his time is spread.  pd-pddp is in
> Debian/Ubuntu/Mint etc.  For someone who knows
> Fedora/RPM packaging, it would be really easy to package
> it.  Then PDDP is included in Pd-extended already. So
> that means for the vast majority of users, pddplink and
> helplink are already part of the standard install.
> 
> > Maybe my time would be better spent making a "gui"
> plugin that just grabs
> > all the stuff that should be core pd but isn't and
> installs it:
> > revised/maintained docs, [initbang], [closebang],
> [pddplink], [helplink],
> > $@, etc.
> 
> That's done, that's called Pd-extended ;)
> 
> .hc
> 
> > 
> > -Jonathan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> 
> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> 
> >> Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a
> long
> >> stick.    -
> >> David Zicarelli
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The arc of history bends towards justice. 
>    - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> 
> 
>