[PD-dev] packaging the pddp docs

[Jonathan Wilkes]

--- On Tue, 6/28/11, Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at> wrote:

> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> Subject: Re: [PD-dev] packaging the pddp docs
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" <jancsika at yahoo.com>
> Cc: pd-dev at iem.at
> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 6:58 PM
> 
> On Jun 28, 2011, at 12:51 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 6/28/11, Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> >> Subject: Re: [PD-dev] packaging the pddp docs
> >> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" <jancsika at yahoo.com>
> >> Cc: pd-dev at iem.at
> >> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 6:33 PM
> >>
> >> On Jun 28, 2011, at 11:43 AM, Jonathan Wilkes
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- On Tue, 6/28/11, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> <hans at at.or.at>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [PD-dev] packaging the pddp
> docs
> >>>> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" <jancsika at yahoo.com>
> >>>> Cc: pd-dev at iem.at
> >>>> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 5:11 PM
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jun 28, 2011, at 12:55 AM, Jonathan
> Wilkes
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- On Tue, 6/28/11, Hans-Christoph
> Steiner
> >> <hans at at.or.at>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
> <hans at at.or.at>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [PD-dev] packaging
> the pddp
> >> docs
> >>>>>> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" <jancsika at yahoo.com>
> >>>>>> Cc: pd-dev at iem.at
> >>>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 6:27
> AM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jun 27, 2011, at 6:45 PM,
> Jonathan
> >> Wilkes
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --- On Mon, 6/27/11,
> Hans-Christoph
> >> Steiner
> >>>> <hans at at.or.at>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From: Hans-Christoph
> Steiner
> >> <hans at at.or.at>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: [PD-dev]
> packaging the
> >> pddp docs
> >>>>>>>> To: pd-dev at iem.at
> >>>>>>>> Date: Monday, June 27,
> 2011, 9:21
> >> PM
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now that the core Pd docs
> (i.e.
> >>>> /usr/lib/pd/doc/*)
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>> split out into a
> >>>>>>>> separate Debian package, I
> think
> >> it could
> >>>> make
> >>>>>> sense to
> >>>>>>>> package the PDDP
> >>>>>>>> docs in a kind of mirror
> or
> >> replacement
> >>>> package.
> >>>>>>>> Something like
> >>>>>>>> pddp-doc.  Jonathan,
> in
> >> particular, I
> >>>> was
> >>>>>> thinking
> >>>>>>>> that since you have
> >>>>>>>> wanted to work on all the
> patches
> >> there,
> >>>> we could
> >>>>>> set it up
> >>>>>>>> so the
> >>>>>>>> pddp-doc package mirrors
> the
> >> whole
> >>>>>> /usr/lib/pd/doc*
> >>>>>>>> directory and patch
> >>>>>>>> structure, have this in
> SVN, git,
> >> or
> >>>> whatever
> >>>>>>>> somewhere.  Then
> people
> >>>>>>>> could choose the pddp-doc
> package
> >> if they
> >>>> so
> >>>>>> choose.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The PDDP docs I did are all
> for
> >> vanilla
> >>>> objects
> >>>>>> (exceptions are
> >>>>>>> expr family, and the other
> "vanilla"
> >>>> extras).  If
> >>>>>> a new user clicks
> >>>>>>> "Help" on a vanilla object, it
> should
> >> show the
> >>>> revised
> >>>>>> PDDP help
> >>>>>>> patch by default.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So instead of what you
> propose, please
> >> make
> >>>> something
> >>>>>> like a
> >>>>>>> legacy-vanilla-help package.
> >> That way,
> >>>> if
> >>>>>> someone really prefers
> >>>>>>> the old docs, they can still
> find
> >> them, and we
> >>>> won't
> >>>>>> waste new users' time
> >>>>>>> by forcing them to use
> outdated and
> >>>> unmaintained docs
> >>>>>> (until they figure
> >>>>>>> out they're supposed to
> download a
> >> separate
> >>>> package
> >>>>>> for the current
> >>>>>>> vanilla help patches, which
> nobody has
> >> to do
> >>>> for any
> >>>>>> of the external
> >>>>>>> packages).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Jonathan
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree that the PDDP docs are
> much
> >> better, that's
> >>>> why I
> >>>>>> want to get them out there more.
> >> Part of
> >>>> packaging is
> >>>>>> representing the upstream as it is
> and
> >> letting the
> >>>> user
> >>>>>> decide.  So I think it makes
> sense to
> >> keep
> >>>> puredata-doc
> >>>>>> as what's included in the
> official
> >> tarball.
> >>>> As for
> >>>>>> Pd-extended, I think it should
> still use
> >> the PDDP
> >>>> docs, so
> >>>>>> like you say, showing the PDDP
> docs by
> >> default.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ok.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> So we just need a plan of attack.  If
> you can
> >> lead up
> >>>> this project, I
> >>>> will help as much as I can.  Do you
> want to
> >> include
> >>>> the whole docs
> >>>> tree in the doc/pddp SVN?
> >
> > I'm already kind of doing that with pd-l2ork. 
> I've revised Miller's
> > control/audio/ds tutorials.  Pd-l2ork has fixed
> the crasher bug when
> > a patch closes itself, so I've got a navigation
> toolbar in those  
> > tutorials
> > that is currently incompatible with
> pd-extended/vanilla.
> 
> I had no idea.  Ico seems to work on his own.  It
> would be great to  
> have those bug fixes submitted to the patch tracker. 
> The patch  
> tracker is what Miller, IOhannes, Martin Peach, me and
> others use for  
> keeping track of patches that are meant to go into
> pure-data core.

He's also working off 0.42 currently, so submitting to the 
tracker would be pointless.  I think someone was working 
to port the changes forward to 0.43, but Ico is currently 
on vacation and I'm not sure where they are in the process.

> 
> 
> >> Or something
> >> else?  It
> >>>> seems to me the
> >>>> easiest would be to start a separate
> repository
> >> for them,
> >>>> like on
> >>>> SourceForge, pddp is available: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ 
> >>>> pddp
> >>>>
> >>>> Or we could reorganize doc/pddp in the
> pure-data
> >> SVN.
> >>>>
> >>>> .hc
> >>>
> >>> Since Pd-extended and Pd-l2ork already use the
> PDDP
> >> docs, the only thing
> >>> we're talking about here is providing PDDP
> docs for
> >> people who use
> >>> vanilla, and that's a simple commit.  So
> I don't
> >> see why I have to head up
> >>> some new project and learn Debian packaging in
> order
> >> to meander toward (or
> >>> around) that goal.
> >>
> >> Its not a new project. I see it as a better
> representation
> >> of what's currently happening.  You are doing
> great
> >> work with the PDDP docs, I think we can make the
> structure
> >> of that project work better for you.  Having
> it as a
> >> distinct entity means you are less encumbered by
> others when
> >> making decisions about what should happen with
> PDDP.
> >> That distinct entity can be either a folder in the
> pure-data
> >> SVN, a separate SourceForge project, or whatever
> we think is
> >> easiest.  I think one of the first two
> options would
> >> work well.
> >>
> >> I'm happy to do all of the Debian packaging, that
> part
> >> would be easy for me.
> >
> > So what is it you want me to do?
> 
> To start with, choose a repository to work out of. 
> Shall we just  
> reorganize the doc/pddp folder in pure-data SVN?  Then
> make that the  
> home of your PDDP work, and I'll package it for Debian, and
> make sure  
> the new layout works in Pd-extended.

That works.  Should it be merged with the current pddp libdir?

> 
> .hc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>> The only problem is with pddplink and
> helplink
> >> dependencies, which should
> >>> just be included in vanilla as internal
> objects.
> >> Is there a good reason
> >>> why they aren't?
> >>
> >> That's something you'd have to take up with
> Miller, only he
> >> makes the call there.  Honestly, I think
> we're better
> >> off keeping things as distinct libraries. 
> Miller has
> >> limited time to spend on Pd, so the more stuff
> that's in Pd,
> >> the thinner his time is spread.  pd-pddp is
> in
> >> Debian/Ubuntu/Mint etc.  For someone who
> knows
> >> Fedora/RPM packaging, it would be really easy to
> package
> >> it.  Then PDDP is included in Pd-extended
> already. So
> >> that means for the vast majority of users,
> pddplink and
> >> helplink are already part of the standard
> install.
> >>
> >>> Maybe my time would be better spent making a
> "gui"
> >> plugin that just grabs
> >>> all the stuff that should be core pd but isn't
> and
> >> installs it:
> >>> revised/maintained docs, [initbang],
> [closebang],
> >> [pddplink], [helplink],
> >>> $@, etc.
> >>
> >> That's done, that's called Pd-extended ;)
> >>
> >> .hc
> >>
> >>>
> >>> -Jonathan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Using ReBirth is like trying to play an
> 808 with a
> >> long
> >>>> stick.    -
> >>>> David Zicarelli
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> The arc of history bends towards justice.
> >>    - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "A cellphone to me is just an opportunity to be irritated
> wherever you  
> are." - Linus Torvalds
> 
>