[PD-dev] removing pd/bin/msvr*.dll from Pd/win
Miller Puckette
msp at ucsd.edu
Wed Jan 23 19:30:15 CET 2019
Cool.
I have a real tough test in mind - the old PDRP patches which have MSVC-
compiled externs in them, with msvcrt.dll dynamically linked (I believe).
I'll set up a clean W2K system to test them on and see what happens (and
if they don't work without the DLLs in pd/bin/ I can see if my proposed
workaround fixes things).
cheers
M
On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 10:14:39AM +0000, Lucas Cordiviola wrote:
> Here's a full dependency-walker analysis of all w32 v00-extended Deken:
>
> http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dep-walk-00extended-deken-w32-report.zip
>
> It's one text file per .dll. We can Grep/Findstring to get results that mainly boils down to:
>
> msvcr90.dll -> no match.
>
> msvcr71.dll -> Gem and friends.
>
> pthread -> splits to:
>
> PTHREADGC2.DLL --> some objects.
>
> PTHREADVC.DLL --> Gem and friends. We must consider Oliver's discoveries on this: https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2018-12/124086.html as there's something strange with this file.
>
> As of "msvcrt.dll" I think Christof had explained everything. My tests deleting this file showed no trouble.
>
> As of "msvcr90.dll" I will randomly search tomorrow on non Pd-extended-era but it could be the case that is not needed, ...
>
> Here are the Pd patches I used to generate batch files for dependency-walker and also to serialize opening and closing *-help.pd files:
>
> http://lucarda.com.ar/x/w32DekenPKGdepWalkCHECK1.zip
>
> @Christof
>
> since 2015 there are new runtime libraries, e.g. UCRTBASE.DLL and VCRUNTIME140.DLL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_library_files#MSVCRT.DLL,_MSVCP*.DLL_and_CRTDLL.DLL)
>
>
> I helped Zack Lee's [ofelia] in the early stage a year ago. Basically there's the normal vc_redist.x86.exe but it does not work on machines that don't receive updates (a minority anyway) but theres is work around shipping a lot of dlls. :)
>
>
> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
>
> On 1/22/2019 10:56 PM, Christof Ressi wrote:
>
> sorry for spamming, but I think this SO question and the given answers shed some more light on the issue:
>
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1073509/should-i-redistribute-msvcrt-dll-with-my-application
>
> TL;DR: programs built with VS can either link statically against the MSVCRT or they have to install the appropiate redistributable package.
> msvcrt.dll is very old and was declared a private system library which applications should not link against (didn't know that!), but MinGW does anyway.
> You should certainly *not* redistribute msvcrt.dll.
>
> Christof
>
> PS: since 2015 there are new runtime libraries, e.g. UCRTBASE.DLL and VCRUNTIME140.DLL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_library_files#MSVCRT.DLL,_MSVCP*.DLL_and_CRTDLL.DLL)
>
>
>
>
>
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2019 um 02:17 Uhr
> Von: "Christof Ressi" <christof.ressi at gmx.at><mailto:christof.ressi at gmx.at>
> An: pd-dev <pd-dev at lists.iem.at><mailto:pd-dev at lists.iem.at>
> Betreff: Re: [PD-dev] removing pd/bin/msvr*.dll from Pd/win
>
> to sum it up: msvcrt.dll is always present on the system anyway, so there's no need to ship it with Pd. if an externals relies on msvcr90.dll in pd/bin I would consider this a bug.
>
>
>
>
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2019 um 01:54 Uhr
> Von: "Christof Ressi" <christof.ressi at gmx.at><mailto:christof.ressi at gmx.at>
> An: "Miller Puckette" <msp at ucsd.edu><mailto:msp at ucsd.edu>
> Cc: pd-dev at lists.iem.at<mailto:pd-dev at lists.iem.at>
> Betreff: Re: [PD-dev] removing pd/bin/msvr*.dll from Pd/win
>
> @Miller:
>
> neither Pd nor any externals built with MinGW (basically every external using pd-lib-builder) depend on the msvcrt.dll (or the msvcr90.dll or pthreadVC.dll) included in pd/bin. externals built with pd-lib-builder don't link against the runtime DLLs shipped with Pd anyway. I've deleted them from the Pd bin folder and everything works fine on several machines.
>
> apart from that, Pd and pure C externals (no matter if compiled with MinGW or VS) only use C functions from the MSVC runtime and this doesn't cause troubles because memory or handles don't cross module boundaries and data structures are well defined. e.g. you must never malloc in one module and free in another because there might be different runtimes involved.
>
> C++ externals compiled with MinGW usually link statically against libstdc++ (or ship the DLL) so there are no missing symbols. C++ externals compiled with VS would ideally link statically (see below), but they should *not* rely on a runtime DLL shipped with Pd. if they do, I would reach out to the maintainer or recompile and upload to Deken. so I would say let's get rid of the runtime DLLs in pd/bin.
>
> @IOhannes:
>
>
>
> On 1/22/19 11:36 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
>
>
> Would this mean that anyone shipping a binary external for Windows would
> have to put it in a separate directory with its own msvcrt.dll/msvcr90.dll?
> Sounds like a nightmare to me.
>
>
>
> but i think that's really the only sane way.
> unless you can guarantee that Pd and all externals are built with the
> same compiler.
>
>
>
> or they can link statically. This is what most VST plugins seem to do. Dependency Walker doesn't show any open dependencies on MSVC runtime libraries on the plugins I've checked. They obviously coexist peacefully in DAWs although they might be from different decades and are mostly written in C++.
>
>
>
> afaict, Gem really requires to link against msvcrt.
>
>
>
> using Dependency Walker on the recent Gem 0.94 I see that it only uses C symbols from the MSVC, like any other plugin compiled with MinGW, so I don't see a problem here. the C++ symbols come from the libstdc++ which you ship (although you could also link statically). OTOH, the old Gem from Pd extended depended on C++ symbols from msvcr71.dll (I guess because it was compiled with VS) and if that DLL was missing Gem wouldn't load.
>
> Christof
>
>
>
>
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2019 um 00:51 Uhr
> Von: "Miller Puckette" <msp at ucsd.edu><mailto:msp at ucsd.edu>
> An: "IOhannes m zm??lnig" <zmoelnig at iem.at><mailto:zmoelnig at iem.at>
> Cc: pd-dev at lists.iem.at<mailto:pd-dev at lists.iem.at>
> Betreff: Re: [PD-dev] removing pd/bin/msvr*.dll from Pd/win
>
>
>
> Here's an idea, what if I stuck msvcr*dll in a separate directory and
> called SetDllDirectory another time in s_loader.c to allow externs to find it
> if they need it?
>
>
>
> hmm, but SetDllDirectory() only allows us to specify a single additional
> directory (calling it multiple times will just change this single
> directory). and we already need it for specifying the plugin-path, so
> the external can ship its own dependencies - beyond msvcrt.dll
>
> fgmdars
> IOhannes
>
>
>
> Lame fix would be to try it twice, first the "good" way (looking where the
> extern is), then as a backup, in .../pd/bullshit where I could hide the old
> DLs.
>
>
>
>
>
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