[PD] A newbie needs first aid!

Wed Feb 4 23:18:55 CET 2004

Maybe its good, maybe its not, what's happening here now.
My intention was not to give a bang for psychological
discussions like that. 
I think, I should try to lower the heat of emotions now.
When I asked for 'first aid' via this discussion board, I
didn't even think about the possibility, someone would
send me a whole patch for my (it was only a small part
of the whole) project. 
Sure, it helped a lot, but just as I said... it was not the
whole project. The main thing were the 60 video-clips
we filmed for that, together with the picture-processin-
stuff, sound design with NI Reaktor and so on. I should
have said earlier, that the PD-patch is not the whole
project. Maybe then my situation would have been clearer
to other people.
I've worked (only in PD) for 17 hours for the project...
just because of Brandons and every others help relating
to PD. Some things were new to me (e.g. Framestein),
that gave me the reason to spend time with that for 
understanding it. And it made project much more 
better than it would have been without external
informations. I saw the whole thing as a learning 
process. Its not, that I got the patch and showed it to my
teacher; I had to understand it and connect it to the rest
of the mains patch elements, together with all the material
the project is based upon in order to work together.
Yes, and I really learned a lot by doing that. Once I
hated PD, now, after working with it in a very intensive
way, I think I continue working with it.
I was really happy when I saw, that the community-members
here are helping each other; even if some beginner like me
asks for help. In some game-developer-communities the
situation is a bit different. It seems as if the professionals
only help other professionals. 
So please don't think about changing you minds. This
community should be a place for helping each other.

Something else... my tutor knows about the help of you
all and apprechiates it a lot.

Thanks everyone!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bradon Webb" <amodiuslonodium at yahoo.com>
To: <pd-list at iem.at>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PD] A newbie needs first aid!

> --- Pall Thayer <palli at pallit.lhi.is> wrote:
> 
> > > Hallo,
> > > Rory Walsh hat gesagt: // Rory Walsh wrote:
> > > 
> 
> > >  If I was a teacher, I would love my students to
> > go out,
> > > find experts, speak to them and learn from them.
> > Not all knowledge is
> > > buried at schools and colleges. So unless they
> > just rip off someone
> > > else's work and pretend it's their own, this
> > should be fine, even
> > > encouraged.
> > > 
> 
> I hope that my work will not be just ripped off! not
> really for my sake, but for the one using the
> information.  Although I did kind of set up a
> situation for that to easily happen.  It did not seem
> like that much work.  The whole thing pieced together
> in less than 20 min.  If someone turns this in as a
> complete project for a grade, I feel sorry for them,
> because they have learned not much.  There is no
> intention on my part to complete someones school
> project for them, but merely serve up some technical
> advice with examples of something they might be
> looking for with the hope that they may expand upon
> what I have given them.  I myself am out of school, so
> my viewpoint on sharing is somewhat different in the
> proffessional collaborative sense now.  
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > I am a teacher and encourage my students to go out
> > and seek information 
> > themselves. Of course, if they manage to find
> > someone who is willing to do 
> > ALL the work for them, that's pretty sad. People
> > should understand that 
> > you're not really helping a student if you provide
> > them with what they 
> > should do themselves. The right thing to do is
> > simply point them in the 
> > right direction, tell them what externals they may
> > need, where to find 
> > them and where they can find information that may
> > help them to accomplish 
> > whatever they're doing.
> > 
> 
> point well taken,
> maybe I have gone too far.  In the future maybe I
> should present my help to others in a different
> language format instead of speaking the same language
> that they are working in.  a simmilar example might
> be... instead of providing a painter who wants to know
> about painting with a painting, give them a technical
> manual about oil or acrylic painting brushes and
> canvases.
> 
> ...sorry this is kind of a sensitive issue with
> myself... I will go on...
> 
> I have had the experience with PD and the list that
> sometimes the help people provide is somewhat obscure
> and pretty miminal as far as from a new user
> stanpoint.  I have to say that boxed packages are by
> far more friendly to students than PD speeking from a
> how-to-use-and-get-help perspective.  There are tons
> of assumptions people make when they explain something
> to someone and especially when you use a written form
> of language.  It is as if people think you have been
> coding and programming in C++ since you were 2.  The
> best way for me to learn this application has been to
> actually see working examples and how things are
> connected.  Now that I have been working with PD for a
> year, I feel I can begin to understand its abstract
> language and can relate that to the language of what
> someone is telling me I need to do.  I remember when I
> first started I had tons of problems (still do) and I
> could not find answers that would be descriptive
> enough or point me in the direction of finding a
> soulution and sadly in the end abandoned alot of
> projects because of it.
> 
> I have had maybe some bad experiences with technology,
> where friends and colleagues would not show anyone
> anything technically speeking...  The way I think they
> saw it was I could attain their knowledge and rival
> them in the market place, or produce art simmilar to
> what they were doing or, what they had learned was
> somehow intrinsic to themselves and their path and
> thus uniportant to everyone else.  I have a feeling it
> was more the latter than the former. everything they
> did was a deep secret.  I absolutely hated this
> standpoint.  maybe now though I appreciate them by
> protecting me from not learning, by really learning
> (the cause of much pain in the front lobe by banging
> head against wall).  It does depend on the situation,
> but I do think that giving someone the "magic button"
> for a solution is wrong.  It depends on the reasoning.
>  I do for example drive an automobile, and when it
> breaks I look for, the "majic button".  This usually
> means a mechanic who will do the work for me.  That
> way I do not have to spend the time learning about
> fuel pumps, and carberators, but I can spend more of
> my time making art.  I do not claim to know about
> cars, but I have chosen to drive one.  there seems
> like there is some knoledge for things that is on a
> must know basis, and other knowledge that is merely
> running the thing but could care less how it works
> basis.  I realize the err in my thinking as I could
> have checked first.  It is really all about intent I
> guess.  I hope to have not undermined anyones
> educaional experience (which ironically has turned out
> quite educational for myself).  I did not feel bad
> about helping this person in this way, but maybe now I
> do.  I just got overwhelmed with the thought giving
> someone exactly what they needed and helping them
> instead of beating around the bush.  This I guess
> because I figured the soulution in this case was more
> important than the process.  In the future I will try
> to be more ethical with my help.
> 
> apologies,
> bradon
> 
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