[PD] Piksel'05

[Christian Klippel]

hello,

Am Mittwoch 17 August 2005 19:42 schrieb cyrille henry:
> Christian Klippel a écrit :
> > hi,
> >
> > Am Mittwoch 17 August 2005 16:03 schrieb Marc Lavallée:
> >>Le 17 Août 2005 09:44, cyrille henry a écrit :
> >
> > [...snip...]
> >
> >>Software can be modified, hardware can't. It's easier to sell and buy
> >
> > objection!
> >
> > i wouldnt say that hardware cant be modified.
>
> this is because you have never see free hardware.

woot? not only i have seen it, i actually do it: http://multio.mamalala.de to 
give only one example ..... be carefull what you wish for .... ;-)

> once you have the shematic of your hardware, it's easier (at least for
> me) to understand how does it work than to undestand how does a software
> work.
>
> the good point of a hardware is that you can print the all shematic on a
> big piece of paper. you can't wih software (how many page do you nead to
> print pd code?).
> you can have everything in front of you with hardware developement. not
> with software.
>

if you know all used electronic parts inside-out, then yes. otherwise you also 
have to read datasheets, manuals, etc. taking the iobox as example, the 
datasheets of all used parts will give a higher pile of paper than the 
printout of pd's sources.

> this is a mailling list for the developement of a software, so everybody
> know how to develop a software, and few know how to develop a hardware.
> this mailling list does not represent everybody.
>
> >remember the good, old c64? how
> > many were sold, and from that, how many were used unmodified? almost
> > none, i would say.
> >
> > admitted, with modern hardware it becomes harder to make modifications,
> > but it is still possible. for example, on serveral occasions i modified
> > wintv cards to have certain output jacks, that only higher-priced models
> > had. all that was needed are readily available chips & jacks, and a calm
> > hand to handle these smd beasts.
>
> once agaian, i did not speak about hacking, but building.
>

this comment was re: modifying hardware (in marcs post). not about building 
from scratch.

> > just recently i modified my dvd player to have a full set of jacks for
> > the 5.1 audio output (it only had stereo and one digital output). that
> > was even simpler, only some cap's and the jacks were needed, plus an
> > op-amp.
> >
> > or look at gfx cards.... its not long ago (or it still is) that there
> > were serveral versions of the same card: with additional outputs, like
> > video, or with higher speed dac's that allow for higher refresh rates and
> > resolutions. it would be possible to change the dac chips, for example.
> > or put the missing parts for the additional outputs on it......
> >
> > once in munich we got a big batch of memory cards for some exotic
> > hardware at a really low price (surplus like). that was in the time when
> > 4-mbyte simm modules had high prices. now we desolderes the single chips,
> > and soldered them on empty simm sticks. about 80 percent of them worked
> > flawlessy afterwards.....
> >
> >>physical goods (like food), but it's easier to share ideas, so harware
> >>companies consider their drivers as being part of their hardware. They
> >> are so wrong... One day, we will build our own hardware based on shared
> >> ideas and software.
> >
> > im hoping for that. and im already working towards that.
> > after all, digital hardware is much easier to design and build than
> > analogue hardware.
>
> ??????
> i'm an analog hardware fan, so i do not agree.
> it's just a question of what YOU like to do, and what YOU know what to do.
>

i can take a bunch of ttl ic's, memory, microcontroller. all that is needed to 
make it work is to know whats an input and whats an output, and connect 
these. with analogue circuitry you _have_ to do calculations to make it work. 
for example, a transistor alone isnt of much use, you need at least resistors 
also to make it work in a meaningfull way. and those values have to be 
calculated. in digital world, i only need wires to connect the pins of the 
chips. i dont have to care about bias points, positive/negative swings, etc. 
as i would need when building an amplifier stage.

> >in fact, one could look at it (the digital part) as "pd with real
> > objects".
>
> pd with real objects is more analog electronic than digital electronic.
> pd with real objects is modular analog synth made 20 or 30 years ago.

agreed. but i was more refering to the simplicity of connecting black-boxes 
(in this case chips vs. pd objects) instead of caring about the inertia of 
them. to build a analogue synth module, even a simple oscillator, you need 
more knowledge than you need to build a running light with one digital chip 
(cd4017).

> there is a lot of projets to build free pd with real objects.
> (I personally have build few of them, for the one interested with free
> music.)
>

do you have any pointers? im interrested in such stuff generally ....
soon i will put mine online, just need to "polish" them so they can be put 
online ....

> (as this discution is highly OT, i just got further :
> how many people in this list have listen to ANALOG FM synthesis. i never
>   succed doing so great sound with pd or any other digital stuff.)
>

true.

> > its just that many people are not interrested in creating new
> > hardware, for whatever reason.
>
> siting on a chair, drinding beer, eating pizza :-)
> it's a joke, but to be honest i never drink coffee becaus it's
> incompatible with hardware soldering, so yes, ther are some (bad) reason
> to focus on software better than hardware.
>
> >many are afraid to handle chips, a solder
> > iron, etc, because they think its too complicated, and that the parts
> > would be too sensitive (i.e. that they would be easily destroyed). but
> > its not that complicated and sensitive as most people think.
>
> it depend on peoples : i konw a lot's of people who think that software
> developement is harder than hardware.
>
> > its pretty much the same as
> > it was when computers became widely available. many people were afraid to
> > touch them, because they thought they are too fragile. today we know
> > better, and many people built their own pc's from single components.
> > and whats the real difference between plugging a ram stick into your pc,
> > compared to plug a chip into some pcb? to me, not much ....
>
> anyway, to go back to the original discution : whatever the dificulty of
> hardware developement, you can't say you're free if you use not-free
> hardware.
>

agreed .... ;-)

> cyrille
>

greetings,

chris