R: R: [PD] Re: [PD-announce] clr: externals in CLR assemblies

Thu Jan 19 00:33:43 CET 2006

Hi Thomas!

> 
> Hi Davide,
> i'm starting to work with the clr external.
> Running the clr on OSX crashes PD for now, i'm trying to find 
> the reason a bit later.

pland also reports this..
at work i have a G4 with osx 10.3 installed and the external performs well,
no crashes no latency no startup time (as in winXP) etc...

> Concerning the cvs, it would be great if you could also add 
> the source for the PureData.dll which is now a kind of black box.

PureData.dll sources are in the pd folder.. maybe we should rename this
folder to PureData so it would be more intuitive?
that is here:
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/pure-data/externals/clr/pd/

> A thought a bit about the naming of functions for the Pd 
> domain and also the external classes. I find it a bit too 
> verbose. Are you sure that it's necessary to call it 
> "DelegateWithoutArguments"  or "PostMessage" when the 
> functions are in their own namespace? It's really my personal 
> taste, but i would prefer sticking closer to the naming of 
> the original PD API functions (and i admit i don't like 
> typing that much...) 

yeah, me too, i was misleaded by visual studio auto-completition feature (I
just need to write "pd." and I get all available functions...

I gave verbose names thinking that this maybe the clr external will be
usefull to not experienced developers.. that was my first time using
delegates and I guess fiew developers know them.. also i thought that maybe
this external could help how is not comfortable with writing C externals so
giving a more "user friendly" interface could be good..

but that is just my personal point of view, that is something I am happy to
change if you think is better.. 

What i'm also wondering about is the 
> mixture of class and objects initialization in SetUp 
> (wouldn't Main be a better choice, since that's already 
> reserved in C#?). In the example externals, you are setting 
> up both selectors (which is bound to the class) and 
> inlets/outlets (which must be done during object 
> construction). I guess SetUp/Main() should be static, so that 
> it can be called on class initialization (e.g. in the loader) 
> independently from an object instance, and then, the object 
> initialization (like AddInlet etc.) should be done in the 
> object constructor.
> 

Ok, I must admit that in my mind wasn't clear enough the external.setup() vs
external.new() distinction.. now it is becoming a bit more clear, but i must
admin, not enough...

anyway the SetUp() name could lead to misunderstanding: the clr external
doesn't really register those selectors!
actually it registers only 4 methods: 
  * one for bangs
  * one for floats
  * one for symbols
  * one for lists

when you call AddSelector the clr instance simply stores that string in an
array together with a MonoMethod (which will be called when this selector is
the first atom of an incoming list).
So the selectors registration is not performed at class initialization but
at object initialization.

really it may be better to use just another name than SetUp..
maybe just the C# class constructor?

> I don't completely understand the usage of namespaces in the 
> CLI, but is it really necessary to put the client externals 
> into the PureData namespace? 

.. now that i think better.. i don't think is necessary for externals to be
in the PureData namespace

It's also a bit misleading that 
> the Pd functions are in the Pd class, but a PureData.dll is 
> needed for using them.
> 

yes, that's weird, but i didn't find a way to have functions outside a
class, so I was forced to create a static class for them.

> I'm really looking forward to working with the clr external!
> 

hey, let's rock!

> best greetings,
> Thomas
> 
> 
> Am 17.01.2006 um 23:20 schrieb Davide Morelli:
> 
> >
> > well, not yet..
> > I mean i've asked Thomas how to use it and he kindly 
> explained me but 
> > I haven't had time yet to write that code..
> > I'd surely need more info from him.. and a bit of time to 
> recompile pd 
> > with his patch, read the source code, understand how it works and 
> > modify my external..
> > this way sounds complicated but that is not tru, should be simple
> >
> > ...maybe the better thing would be that he modify clr 
> directly on CVS?
> >
> > or write a very very simple how-to?
> >
> > davide.
> >
> >
> >> -----Messaggio originale-----
> >> Da: pd-list-bounces at iem.at [mailto:pd-list-bounces at iem.at] 
> Per conto 
> >> di Hans-Christoph Steiner
> >> Inviato: martedì 17 gennaio 2006 20.57
> >> A: pd-list at iem.kug.ac.at
> >> Oggetto: [PD] Re: [PD-announce] clr: externals in CLR assemblies
> >>
> >>
> >> This is great.  I am assuming that you are using the new loader 
> >> functionality from Thomas.  Would it be possible if you 
> could put up 
> >> some notes about what you did?  It'll help others like me 
> write other 
> >> loaders.
> >>
> >> .hc
> >>
> >> On Jan 17, 2006, at 11:07 AM, Davide Morelli wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> hello!
> >>>
> >>> [clr] is an external that lets you create externals using clr 
> >>> languages (C#, vb.net, ruby.net, dotLisp, etc..), it embeds mono.
> >>>
> >>> you can find it in
> >>> /externals/clr
> >>>
> >>> At the moment it can only receive and send bangs, floats,
> >> symbols and
> >>> lists. ASAP I'll add support for pointers, signals and Gem.
> >> Also many
> >>> important functions are not present (things like timer callbacks
> >>> etc..)
> >>>
> >>> I've tested it on winXp and osx 10.3 but i'm pretty sure it
> >> will work
> >>> on linux too.
> >>> I need help writing makefiles, defining dependancies and testing.
> >>> I will soon build binary packages.
> >>> It is possible to build binary packages including mono and
> >> all the GAC
> >>> so the "end-user" won't need to install mono to use [clr] and the 
> >>> externals needing it
> >>>
> >>> requirements:
> >>>  * mono installed
> >>>  * glib, gthread, iconv in path (they should be inside 
> mono as well)
> >>>
> >>> what you need to do to compile it:
> >>>  * edit PATHs in the makefile so the compiler can find 
> mono, glib, 
> >>> gthread, etc...
> >>>
> >>> to write an external you need to:
> >>>  * in the pd folder compile pd.cs and Atom.cs into PureData.dll
> >>>  * use the PureData namespace
> >>>  * add PureData.dll to the references
> >>>  * declare an "private intPtr x" variable
> >>>  * declare a "void SetUp()" function and put there inlet,
> >> outlet and
> >>> selectors creation (see the external folder for a couple of
> >> examples)
> >>>
> >>> -----------
> >>>
> >>> features:
> >>>  * you can write externals in any clr language (C#, managed
> >> C++, J#,
> >>> Jscript.Net, PerlNET, Ruby, Scheme, VB.NET, dotLisp and a
> >> lot more.. )
> >>>  * use bangs, symbols, lists (both in and out)
> >>>  * declare inlets, outlets, selectors
> >>>  * use initialization arguments
> >>>  * multi-instance
> >>>  * compile many externals into one single .dll file
> >>>  * extend an external including its assembly instead of
> >> modifying its
> >>> source code
> >>>  * you can compile the external using whichever clr
> >> compiler you like
> >>> most
> >>>  * assemblies are "cross-platform" (a single .dll file for all
> >>> platforms)
> >>>
> >>> what is missing:
> >>>  * support for signals, Gem, graphical externals
> >>>  * many callback functions like timers etc..
> >>>  * there may be threading issues
> >>>  * testing, testing, testing!
> >>>
> >>> --------------
> >>>
> >>> detailed implementation notes, (future) binary pakages here:
> >>> http://www.davidemorelli.it/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=csharp:csharp
> >>>
> >>> PS. many thanks to Thomas Grill for his help!
> >>>
> >>> Ciao,
> >>> Davide Morelli
> >>> www.davidemorelli.it
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> PD-announce mailing list
> >>> PD-announce at iem.at
> >>> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
> >>>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> __________
> >> ____
> >>
> >> Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to 
> know how to 
> >> realize his wishes.
> >> Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, 
> or perish.
> >> 		
> >> -William Carlos Williams
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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