[PD] [hid] crashing with segmentation fault
Jerome Tuncer
columbiatwo at free.fr
Sun Feb 26 17:04:01 CET 2006
Hi Hans-Christopher,
Thanks for your quick answer.
What about [hid] not reporting absolute coordinates of the tablet
anymlore? I remember it user to do so on the other machine I tested it.
Damn, maybe it has something to do with the bugfix... (=
++
Jé
Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
>
> Hmm, I wish there was documentation for the linux input system. It
> seems that the MSC and SYN event types only have a couple defined, but
> they use all sorts.
>
> This is all new to 2.6 kernels, I've only really run this stuff on
> 2.4. So if you want it to be stable, try a 2.4 kernel. I think the
> MSC fix should be relatively straightforward. I try to get to it
> shortly, but I won't have any time to test it for a bit. I am still
> getting setup at my new job, then I'll have a test setup for all
> platforms for Pd in general, including the HID stuff.
>
> .hc
>
> On Feb 24, 2006, at 9:22 AM, Jerome Tuncer wrote:
>
>> Hi Hans-Christopher,
>>
>> Sorry for being soooooooooooooooooo late in testing the new fixes but
>> here I am (=
>>
>> There's news:
>>
>> [hid] only crashes (when polling enabled) with the keyboard of my
>> laptop. As usual, touchpad doesn't report anything (non standard
>> driver). But both my brand new Wacom Graphire and my mouse seem to
>> output stuff without no crash!
>>
>> Here's the output from [hid] compiled in debug when crashing with the
>> keyboard (space key pressed as reported, but crashes with any key):
>> ____________________________________
>>
>> hid_float
>> hid_start
>> [hid] polling started
>> INPUT_EVENT: msc msc_scan 57
>> INPUT_EVENT: key key_space 1
>> pd_gui: pd process exited
>> Erreur de segmentation
>> ____________________________________
>>
>> Common point between all these keyboard crashes are "msc msc_scan"
>> events...
>>
>> Another thing: it seems that with this new version I only can get
>> "rel" positions either with my mouse or with the tablet. Is it normal?
>>
>> Do you need any more output/help?
>>
>> ++
>>
>>
>> Jé
>>
>>
>> Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
>>
>>> Please let me know. I think I committed a better fix more recently
>>> too.
>>> .hc
>>> On Feb 5, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Jerome Tuncer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Hans Christopher,
>>>>
>>>> I hadn't noticed you answered, thread is so down in the list! (-;
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the reply, I'll check that out and keep you informed
>>>> about the results.
>>>>
>>>> ++
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jé
>>>>
>>>> Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Ok, still haven't had a moment to get my Debian going again, but
>>>>> I thought of something else. I updated make-arrays-from-
>>>>> input.h.pl to generate a ev_syn array of 512 items. This should
>>>>> hopefully prevent the segfaults on Linux 2.6 kernels until I
>>>>> figure out a better way to do this.
>>>>> .hc
>>>>> On Jan 10, 2006, at 1:12 PM, Jerome Tuncer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just tried replacing the line you told me in hid_linux.c and
>>>>>> it doesn't work. External compiles well but it still segfaults
>>>>>> with exactly the same error.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I don't understand much C programming, I just replaced
>>>>>> what you said blindly...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck with your PowerBook anyway (-;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ++
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jé
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok, while working on this, my Linux install went down in
>>>>>>> flames. I guess "unstable" was actually unstable this time.
>>>>>>> After a few long fscks, I am back on Mac OS X, but not yet on
>>>>>>> Debian. Anyway, the Linux 2.6 sync events are not used by
>>>>>>> [hid] and are not HID events, but generated by the Linux
>>>>>>> kernel, so they'll be eventually removed so that everything
>>>>>>> is the same across platform.
>>>>>>> For now, try replacing this line in hid_linux.c (line 180):
>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>> with this:
>>>>>>> else if ( event_type != EV_SYN )
>>>>>>> Sorry, I can't test it myself until I fix Debian on my
>>>>>>> PowerBook. Arg...
>>>>>>> .hc
>>>>>>> On Jan 7, 2006, at 10:19 PM, Jerome Tuncer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Haans Christopher,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact, it seems that both the keyboard and the mouse are
>>>>>>>> making [hid] crash. Some time ago, when the touchpad used to
>>>>>>>> work, I remember it made it crash as well and I'm quite sure
>>>>>>>> it gave syn_report messages as well...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By the way: [hid] doesn't crash on my desktop which is Debian
>>>>>>>> testing as well... I'll check the output to see if
>>>>>>>> syn_report messages are present or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ++
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jé
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are you able to narrow down which device is causing it?
>>>>>>>>> Looks like syn_report messages are the culprit. I don't
>>>>>>>>> have a device that outputs syn_report events (IIRC).
>>>>>>>>> I'll look at this today.
>>>>>>>>> .hc
>>>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2006, at 11:51 PM, Jerome Tuncer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans, hi list,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just got back to trying to make [hid] work on my laptop and
>>>>>>>>>> I still can't...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] is the latest from CVS (Friday, January 6th 2006) and
>>>>>>>>>> still gives segmentation faults.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My machine is a PC running Debian unstable with 2.6.14.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here's more detail:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have 3 HID peripherals on the machine:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - /dev/input/event0 :: Keyboard
>>>>>>>>>> - /dev/input/event1 :: Touchpad
>>>>>>>>>> - /dev/input/event2 :: USB Mouse
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "$ hexdump /dev/input/event1" doesn't output anything so I
>>>>>>>>>> assume the touchpad doesn't send info well. Let's forget
>>>>>>>>>> about that for now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "$ hexdump /dev/input/event0"
>>>>>>>>>> "$ hexdump /dev/input/event2"
>>>>>>>>>> Both output hex. dataflow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The output from [print( sent to [hid] compiled in debug mode
>>>>>>>>>> for the keyboard is printKeyboard.txt. printTouchpad.txt
>>>>>>>>>> and printMouse.txt are the outputs from the 2 other
>>>>>>>>>> peripherals.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The 2 other files (printSegFaultKeyboard.txt and
>>>>>>>>>> printSegFaultMouse.txt) is the stderr from the two
>>>>>>>>>> peripherals that make [hid] crash. Touchpad doesn't seem
>>>>>>>>>> to send anything.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suspect the problem being similar to what Gerda
>>>>>>>>>> experienced in: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/
>>>>>>>>>> pd-list/2005-08/030339.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you know where the problem may come from?
>>>>>>>>>> Do you need more output from anything?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ++
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jé
>>>>>>>>>> hid_new
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] 0.6, written by Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at eds.org>
>>>>>>>>>> hid_open
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] opened device 0 (/dev/input/event0): AT Translated Set
>>>>>>>>>> 2 keyboard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Device 0: 'AT Translated Set 2 keyboard' on '/dev/input/ event0'
>>>>>>>>>> Device 1: 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad' on '/dev/input/event1'
>>>>>>>>>> Device 2: 'Microsoft Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical®' on
>>>>>>>>>> '/dev/input/event2'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Supported events:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> syn syn_report Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>> syn syn_config Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>> syn ? Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>> syn ev_9 Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>> syn ev_12 Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> key key_esc Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_1 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_2 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_3 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_4 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_5 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_6 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_7 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_8 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_9 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_0 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_minus Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_equal Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_backspace Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_tab Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_q Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_w Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_e Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_r Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_t Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_y Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_u Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_i Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_o Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_p Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_leftbrace Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_rightbrace Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_enter Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_leftctrl Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_a Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_s Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_d Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_g Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_h Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_j Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_k Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_l Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_semicolon Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_apostrophe Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_grave Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_leftshift Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_backslash Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_z Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_x Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_c Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_v Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_b Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_n Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_m Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_comma Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_dot Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_slash Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_rightshift Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpasterisk Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_leftalt Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_space Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_capslock Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f1 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f2 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f3 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f4 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f5 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f6 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f7 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f8 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f9 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f10 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_numlock Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_scrolllock Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp7 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp8 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp9 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpminus Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp4 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp5 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp6 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpplus Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp1 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp2 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp3 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kp0 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpdot Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_zenkakuhankaku Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_102nd Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f11 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f12 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_ro Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_katakana Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_hiragana Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_henkan Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_katakanahiragana Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_muhenkan Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpjpcomma Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpenter Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_rightctrl Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpslash Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_sysrq Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_rightalt Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_home Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_up Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_pageup Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_left Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_right Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_end Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_down Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_pagedown Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_insert Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_delete Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_macro Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_mute Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_volumedown Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_volumeup Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_power Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpequal Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpplusminus Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_pause Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_kpcomma Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_yen Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_leftmeta Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_rightmeta Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_compose Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_stop Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_calc Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_sleep Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_wakeup Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_www Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_mail Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_bookmarks Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_computer Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_back Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_forward Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_nextsong Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_playpause Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_previoussong Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_stopcd Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_refresh Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f13 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f14 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_f15 Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_search Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>> key key_media Keys/Buttons
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> msc msc_scan Miscellaneous
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> led led_numl LEDs
>>>>>>>>>> led led_capsl LEDs
>>>>>>>>>> led led_scrolll LEDs
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Detected:
>>>>>>>>>> 5 Sync types
>>>>>>>>>> 142 Key/Button types
>>>>>>>>>> 1 Misc types
>>>>>>>>>> 3 LED types
>>>>>>>>>> hid_new
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] 0.6, written by Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at eds.org>
>>>>>>>>>> hid_open
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] opened device 2 (/dev/input/event2): Microsoft
>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical®
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Device 0: 'AT Translated Set 2 keyboard' on '/dev/input/ event0'
>>>>>>>>>> Device 1: 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad' on '/dev/input/event1'
>>>>>>>>>> Device 2: 'Microsoft Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical®' on
>>>>>>>>>> '/dev/input/event2'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Supported events:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> syn syn_report Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>> syn syn_config Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>> syn ? Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_0 btn_left
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_1 btn_right
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_2 btn_middle
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> rel rel_x Relative Axis
>>>>>>>>>> rel rel_y Relative Axis
>>>>>>>>>> rel rel_wheel Relative Axis
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Detected:
>>>>>>>>>> 3 Sync types
>>>>>>>>>> 3 Key/Button types
>>>>>>>>>> 3 Relative Axis types
>>>>>>>>>> hid_new
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] 0.6, written by Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at eds.org>
>>>>>>>>>> hid_open
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] opened device 0 (/dev/input/event0): AT Translated Set
>>>>>>>>>> 2 keyboard
>>>>>>>>>> hid_float
>>>>>>>>>> hid_start
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] polling started
>>>>>>>>>> INPUT_EVENT: msc msc_scan 57
>>>>>>>>>> INPUT_EVENT: key key_space 1
>>>>>>>>>> INPUT_EVENT: syn syn_report 0
>>>>>>>>>> pd_gui: pd process exited
>>>>>>>>>> Erreur de segmentation
>>>>>>>>>> hid_new
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] 0.6, written by Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at eds.org>
>>>>>>>>>> hid_open
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] opened device 2 (/dev/input/event2): Microsoft
>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical®
>>>>>>>>>> hid_float
>>>>>>>>>> hid_start
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] polling started
>>>>>>>>>> INPUT_EVENT: rel rel_x 4
>>>>>>>>>> INPUT_EVENT: syn syn_report 0
>>>>>>>>>> socket receive error: Connection reset by peer (104)
>>>>>>>>>> Erreur de segmentation
>>>>>>>>>> hid_new
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] 0.6, written by Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at eds.org>
>>>>>>>>>> hid_open
>>>>>>>>>> [hid] opened device 1 (/dev/input/event1): SynPS/2
>>>>>>>>>> Synaptics TouchPad
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Device 0: 'AT Translated Set 2 keyboard' on '/dev/input/ event0'
>>>>>>>>>> Device 1: 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad' on '/dev/input/event1'
>>>>>>>>>> Device 2: 'Microsoft Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical®' on
>>>>>>>>>> '/dev/input/event2'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Supported events:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> syn syn_report Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>> syn syn_config Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>> syn ? Synchronization
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_0 btn_left
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_1 btn_right
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_2 btn_middle
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_5 btn_forward
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_6 btn_back
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_5 btn_tool_finger
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_10 btn_touch
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_13 btn_tool_doubletap
>>>>>>>>>> key btn_14 btn_tool_tripletap
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TYPE CODE EVENT NAME
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> abs abs_x Absolute Axis
>>>>>>>>>> abs abs_y Absolute Axis
>>>>>>>>>> abs abs_pressure Absolute Axis
>>>>>>>>>> abs abs_tool_width Absolute Axis
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Detected:
>>>>>>>>>> 3 Sync types
>>>>>>>>>> 9 Key/Button types
>>>>>>>>>> 4 Absolute Axis types
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> PD-list at iem.at mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> ___ __ __ __ ____
>>>>>>>>> "Computer science is no more related to the computer than
>>>>>>>>> astronomy is related to the telescope."
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> Edsger Dykstra
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> PD-list at iem.at mailing list
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>>>>>>> There is no way to peace, peace is the way.
>>>>>>> -A.J. Muste
>>>>>>>
>>>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>>> ___ __ ____
>>>>> "[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we
>>>>> are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit
>>>>> from scarcity."
>>>>> -John Gilmore
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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