debian and Pd-extended WAS Re: [PD] libjack problems

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Jun 27, 2006, at 9:34 AM, geiger wrote:

>
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>> The Pd-extended build system should be able to handle this right
>> now.  Each section is easily buildable on its own by doing: make
>> ggee, make zexy, make pdp, make iemlib, etc.  And it is quite easy to
>> redirect the install location of make pdp_install, make zexy_install,
>> etc.
>
> Yes, but still I have to do prepare a package each time something went
> wrong. And there are more things that can go wrong than one generally
> thinks.
>
>>> I also like to have the possibility to only install pd, and not
>>> hundreds of externals which I won't use, and which I think noone
>>> should
>>> use and which just use up disk space.
>>
>> There is undoubtedly a lot of cruft.  Part of what I think we should
>> do with Pd-extended is to make a standard way of deprecating cruft.
>> But that takes a lot of work.  So in the meantime, Pd-extended ships
>> with a lot of cruft.
>>
>> The way Pd-extended is now is by no means a finished product, its
>> just one of the stepping stones to a Pd platform.  I think its time
>> to stop wasting time making separate build systems and distros for
>> each platform.  The amount of time that people have wasted on issues
>> due to the separate distros is massive.  The amount of time people
>> have to wait because the package is 25 megs bigger than it should be
>> is not very big.  We can then put that effort into going forward on
>> all platforms.
>
> Sorry, I just do not agree. Most of the things can be done with Pd
> builtin objects. If we would not try to maintain useless stuff we  
> would
> save even more time. If people wouldn't have to try several externals
> and versions before finding the right object to do their things they
> would save time.

All of libc can be written in C, yet basically no one writes C  
programs without libc.  libc is not small, there is a lot of stuff in  
there.  Pd needs to have a lot of stuff included before its anywhere  
near as flushed out as libc.  We really cripple ourselves if we do  
not build and use libraries, whether those libraries are written in C  
or Pd or whatever.  I would rather create music than rewrite an  
object that someone else has already created and debugged.  For  
example, I would have no idea how to write a feedback delay network  
in Pd, it would take me a long time to figure out how, and then debug  
it.  But luckily someone else has done it.  And it took me 20 minutes  
to get it working how I wanted it to.

I agree that stuff is a mess as it is now.  That's why I think we  
should work on standard libraries and deprecate things as we have  
useful replacements.  But Pd as Miller distributes it just too small  
compared to all of the useful work that people have done.  Many of  
the projects I have done quite simply could not be accomplished using  
that set of objects.

> <snip>
>>
>> Once we have the automatic nightly builds setup, that should catch a
>> lot of problems.  Moving it to Debian proper shouldn't be a big deal
>> then.
>
> It might not be a big deal, but it is work, and there are quality  
> checks
> in Debian that are not that easy to surpass. Being able to build is  
> only
> one step. We might be lucky, but I do not think that the Debian people
> share your opinion about quality, so I am in for trouble, and it  
> will be
> hard for me to justify the size of the package, especially if I am not
> convinced myself.
>
> Then, there is also the possiblity to maintain packages outside of  
> Debian,
> which might be easier.

I think Debian quality checks are a good idea.  If we have a unified  
build system, then all platforms would be more likely benefit from  
the Debian quality checks.

.hc


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I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and  
during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man  
for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers.      - General  
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