[PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

Wed Oct 17 21:19:49 CEST 2007

I propose another Topic, the PoorDeveloppement of PD   :P :D

About this offtopic: please, no sexism, no racism, no specism, that's all


2007/10/17, Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at eds.org>:
>
>
> I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who are
> deliberately trying to exclude people.  There are a wide range of cultures
> involved in this list, and some things that are not a big deal in some
> places are quite offensive in others.  And email is never a good medium
> for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in-cheek, sarcasm, etc.
>
> So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when
> posting.  I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this list in
> the past.  In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and
> not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not just males.  Others
> read that as "hey men", which is certainly not what I meant to say...
>
> .hc
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>
>
> You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list.  Now
> it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere.  I had decided to
> ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to.
>
> I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho
> programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of
> male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not
> so in the computer music world.  As someone who was raised by a strong
> feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that.  So far I
> haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions.
>
> It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A friend
> of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd
> always wanted to make things.  She was one of few women in the department,
> and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman.  Needless
> to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical
> engineer.  Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well.
>
> .hc
>
> On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I
> don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties
> also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and
> attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not
> want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's
> just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two
> women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real
> "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I
> guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to
> learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't
> be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's
> 2007!!! Not the stone age.
>
> Anyway, thanks everybody.
>
> -Alicia
>
> pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
>
> hey ho
>
>
> hi roman
>
>
> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
> point.
>
>
> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism
> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we
> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
>
> for example this
> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
>
> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
> deeper degree in the conversation.
> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was followed by a
> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
>
> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some
> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed
> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in
> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
>
> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem
> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until
> the end ;)
>
>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
>
> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
> couldn't be established.
>
>
> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to
> propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
> argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
> mountains)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
>
> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is
> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we
> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the
> world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
> this.
> and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like
> some good internet radio
>
> http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
>
> I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
> outside the list:
>
> - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
> yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
> that  you don't have to do that.
>
> -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual
> artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that
> women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
>
> -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting
> (!)
>
> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
>
> but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that
> participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep
> on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
>
> it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that
> would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around
> why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
>
>
> Alejandra
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
>
> yves,
> I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
>
> (maybe
>
> you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
>
> hi David and all,
> I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some
> examples
> of greasy jokes:
>
> yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this
> could be a basis for a real discussion.
>
>
> From:   JoÃ£o Miguel Pais <jmmmpais at googlemail.com>
> Date:   Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
>
> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
> [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
> humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
>
> i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the
> first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult
> feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt,
> that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
> provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or
> whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
> succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the
> list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in
> order to question the ongoing discussion.
>
> accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do
> not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless
> of the intention.
>
>
> I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts
> is
> just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
>
> i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling
> someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
>
> roman
>
>
>
>
>
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