hi, I am working on dynamically created patches and just figured out (by accident) a nice thing. it seems the $0 in pd-$0subpatch gets substituted correctly by $0 even if it is not at the beginning of a symbol. that means you can have a subpatch [pd $0subpatch] and use [send pd-$0subpatch] to talk to it. makes life a little easier. marius.