[PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

Roman Haefeli reduzierer at yahoo.de
Fri Nov 13 11:21:28 CET 2009


This is obviously a loop. All this has been said and proposed before in the
thread [1], that has been posted by alex porres a few posts back. Sorry for
not having brought any new perspectives into the discussion, but having just
repeated what has been said already.

The only thing i don't really get: Why seems there some agreement, that
using $0 to get the selector could be confusing?

It would certainly end the discussions about the special (somehow undefined)
state it has now. 

roman
 

[1]: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2009-02/067889.html



Am 13.11.09 10:52 schrieb "Roman Haefeli" unter <reduzierer at yahoo.de>:

> 
> 
> 
> Am 13.11.09 01:31 schrieb "Phil Stone" unter <pkstone at ucdavis.edu>:
> 
>> Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Frank Barknecht wrote:
>>>> Alexandre Porres hat gesagt: // Alexandre Porres wrote:
>>>>> But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around, and
>>>>> people always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in
>>>>> messages.
>>>> That may be because your students assume, that $1 in a message box is
>>>> the same
>>>> as $1 in an object box when in fact it's something different.
>>> 
>>> That may be because you assume that objectboxes' $0 must have
>>> something to do with $1,$2,$3,... when in fact it's something different.
>>> 
>>>   $3 stands for ce_argv[2]
>>>   $2 stands for ce_argv[1]
>>>   $1 stands for ce_argv[0]
>>>   $0 stands for ce_dollarzero
>>> 
>>> it's a special case no matter what.
>> 
>> Right.  Which neatly brings the question back around to "why can't $0 be
>> used in message boxes?"  I've said this before (to no avail): it is well
>> understood that $0 has no meaning in *messages* -- however, this is not
>> a good reason why $0 can't be used in *message boxes.*
>> 
>> Since "1024-foo" (where "1024" represents the canvas-identifier), *does*
>> have meaning in messages, why must we jump through (admittedly minor,
>> but still quite annoying) hoops just to get that canvas-identifier into
>> a message?
>> 
>> It probably belongs in the "some things will never change in Pd"
>> category; therefore we must resign ourselves to this discussion
>> re-appearing on a regular basis.
> 
> $0 in messages is only special in the sense, that it has no meaning at all.
> it wouldn't make it less special to use it as a container for canvas
> identifier in message boxes. $-variables in objects have a different meaning
> from $-variables in message boxes, no matter what. I understand, that it
> would make patching often a lot easier, but conceptually it would be
> exceptional to make $0 in message-boxes be replaced by the
> canvas-identifier, while all other $n-variables in message-boxes get
> replaced by the n-th element of the incoming list. I wouldn't want to have
> to pay attention to n in $n in order to determine its behaviour. And i also
> don't support a change that would introduce an inconsistency like that. Why
> don't people fight with the same effort to make $1 in message boxes be
> replaced by the first argument of the patch?
> 
> Personally, i find it 'unecological' to just not use $0 at all in message
> boxes.  I am haven't checked, but i think this idea must have been brought
> up already:
> 
> Let's make $0 in message boxes be replaced by the selector of the incoming
> messages. Currently, it is quite cumbersome to type check a pd message and
> it requires a lot of patching. Using $0 to get the '0th' element of the
> incoming message would be consistent with the way $-variables are currently
> used in message boxes and it would be tremendously useful. Just to
> illustrate the proposed use of $0:
> 
> the incoming message:       the respective $0
> 'hallo velo'                'hallo'
> 'list mein fahrrad'         'list'
> 'symbol bike'               'symbol'
> '12 twentyfour'             'list'
> '12'                        'float'
> 'bang'                      'bang'
> 'bla'                       'bla'
> 
> If this could be implemented, any future discussion about why $0 in message
> boxes is not replaced by the canvas identifier would be lapsed.
> 
> roman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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