[PD] Font weirdness with 0.43test

Miller Puckette msp at ucsd.edu
Mon Aug 30 06:17:22 CEST 2010


Or the Mathieu idea - let the text be small, the box be 'standard' size,
and let the text not fill the box -- but Pd could still know the true
size of the font so editing could work.  Clearly we'll never be able to
reliably set the font metrics and will have to play with what we're dealt,
one way or another.

I'm giving up on getting this out by Sept. 1 -- there's another show-stopper
bug that will take me more than 28 hrs. to fix (more confusion as to
who's 'visible' versus graph on parent)

d'oh...

M


On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 01:45:13PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> 
> The problem is that sending the measured font sizes via pd init puts us
> back at square one: the boxes will be different sizes depending on
> platform and now depending on font.  Then patch/GUI layout breaks across
> different platforms, and now when people use different fonts.
> 
> The least of all evils with the current implementation is having the box
> sizes fixed, and the fonts being a bit too small on the large box/font
> sizes.  That is achieved by undoing the part you just added where it
> sends the measured sizes rather than the fixed sizes via pd init.
> 
> The only way I can see properly doing this is having the pd <--> pd-gui
> communication be logical not pixel-based, and have pd-gui handle all of
> the editing operations.
> 
> .hc
> 
> On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 22:01 -0700, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > OK... applied that one, then went in and made the tcl script report the
> > "real" font metrics to Pd so it can draw the boxes correctly (they were still
> > off on 2 of the font sizes in Fedora 13 and anyway I despair of ever being
> > certain that the font sizes are exactly what Pd wished for) ... is the current
> > git upload working on others' machines?
> > 
> > thanks
> > Miller
> > 
> > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 04:43:16PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> > > 
> > > Looks like here are the options:
> > > 
> > > - have boxes fit around fixed font sizes and have different box
> > > sizes on each platform (vanilla up til 0.42)
> > > 
> > > - have font width fit into fixed box sizes and have long texts
> > > overrun the bottom of boxes (Pd-extended since 0.40)
> > > 
> > > - hopefully the best for now, have the width, then height fit into
> > > the fixed box sizes, and use fonts that are known to work the best.
> > > I attached a patch which implements this and it seems to work pretty
> > > well.  I discovered that the fixed box sizes were different than Pd-extended
> > > so I synced them up so layout should be the same everywhere.
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > >  (apply patch with "git am" to accept it as it).
> > > 
> > > .hc
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Aug 26, 2010, at 2:43 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > > 
> > > >OK.. but for 0.43... is there a stopgap?  I can't think of any way to
> > > >get text editing working (i.e., getting the character you click on to
> > > >be the one Pd sees you click on) except by going back to status quo.
> > > >
> > > >cheers
> > > >MIller
> > > >
> > > >On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 01:54:15PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> > > >wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>On Aug 26, 2010, at 12:52 AM, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>My machine is running 8.5... but I don't think it's good to have
> > > >>>Pd's default font choice come out all wrong... ideally, it should do
> > > >>>something reasonable no matter what the font (well, at least if it's
> > > >>>fixed-pitch).  At the very least, Pd has to know the correct font
> > > >>>metrics... and it seems now not to.
> > > >>
> > > >>I should add, given my experience, I don't think this is a realistic
> > > >>goal without major surgery.  Its something I've put a lot of work
> > > >>into trying to get working.  My experience tells me that the best
> > > >>bet is using a default font.
> > > >>
> > > >>Even better would be making the pd <--> pd-gui communication not
> > > >>deal with pixel values and mouse motion, but instead logical
> > > >>operations. For example, instead of pd knowing anything about the
> > > >>text editing operation, that should happen entirely in the gui.
> > > >>Then once the editing operation is complete, the GUI would send the
> > > >>result to pd.
> > > >>
> > > >>.hc
> > > >>
> > > >>>Perhaps a solution for cross-platform patching (such as for making
> > > >>>help
> > > >>>files) could be to say "this will look woerd on other machines
> > > >>>unless
> > > >>>you use font <blaz> to develope the patch so that you see the
> > > >>>canonical
> > > >>>sizes.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>cheers
> > > >>>M
> > > >>>
> > > >>>On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 04:18:49PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> > > >>>wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Here is the answer to this font problem:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>- use Tcl/Tk 8.5 or newer, Tcl 8.4 is very flawed (see archives for
> > > >>>>discussion, basically it makes bad guesses and assigns them to the
> > > >>>>fontname "courier")
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>- use one of these fonts: {"Courier 10 Pitch" "DejaVu Sans Mono" \
> > > >>>>     "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono" "Droid Sans Mono" "Andale Mono"
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Anything else and you'll have strange results.  In order to have
> > > >>>>better
> > > >>>>font support, we need to do some major surgery.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>.hc
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 13:38 -0700, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > > >>>>>Long as there's a way to fix a problem I'm having:  in message
> > > >>>>>boxes with
> > > >>>>>many lines of text, you can easily click on one character and
> > > >>>>>select one above
> > > >>>>>it... it gets very confusing.  (Fedora 13 out-of-box).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>I'm guessing that in the current version the GUI simply tells
> > > >>>>>Pd what size
> > > >>>>>the font ought to have had instead of the genuine one.  Pd
> > > >>>>>could easily
> > > >>>>>expand the box to the ought-to size (at least optionally for
> > > >>>>>those wishing
> > > >>>>>to make cross-platform patches) but should know about the
> > > >>>>>text's actual size
> > > >>>>>anyway.  To be continued...
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>cheers
> > > >>>>>Miller
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 01:21:08AM -0400, Hans-Christoph
> > > >>>>>Steiner wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>On Aug 23, 2010, at 7:01 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>Hi,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 01:39:08PM -0400, Mathieu
> > > >>>>>>>Bouchard wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>BTW I've been using Pd-Extended's Linux/OSX default font
> > > >>>>>>>>size as the
> > > >>>>>>>>basis for all my patches for making my last 400 patches or so.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>I've used Pd vanilla for all my patches so far, with a
> > > >>>>>>>"10" font-size,
> > > >>>>>>>whatever that is in pixels. I know, that Pd-extended uses some
> > > >>>>>>>different
> > > >>>>>>>layout for several years now, which makes patches look
> > > >>>>>>>wrong when you
> > > >>>>>>>load them in Pd vanilla and the other way around. I
> > > >>>>>>>have not much
> > > >>>>>>>interest to discuss the differences between vanilla and
> > > >>>>>>>Pd-x, as I am
> > > >>>>>>>hoping the two to unify again with the gui-rewrite. So I'm
> > > >>>>>>>willing to
> > > >>>>>>>change my preferences to whatever will be the new
> > > >>>>>>>vanilla, but I'd
> > > >>>>>>>prefer to not do again that with every release or with every new
> > > >>>>>>>Courier-like font that pops up on the Internets' Top 10
> > > >>>>>>>console font
> > > >>>>>>>lists and is so much better than the previous ones.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>Unless Miller changes it in the future, Pd 0.43 should have
> > > >>>>>>the same
> > > >>>>>>boxes sizes that Pd-extended has had for a couple versions.  That
> > > >>>>>>was one of my goals with the GUI rewrite.  Its a bug if
> > > >>>>>>that's not
> > > >>>>>>the case.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>.hc
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>The arc of history bends towards justice.     - Dr. Martin Luther
> > > >>>>>>King, Jr.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>_______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>Pd-list at iem.at mailing list
> > > >>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >>Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally
> > > >>for machines to execute.
> > > >>- from Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
> > > >>
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have
> > > three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their
> > > minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits.      -
> > > Martin Luther King, Jr.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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