[PD] jMax Phoenix

[Jonathan Wilkes]

--- On Thu, 9/23/10, IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig at iem.at> wrote:

> From: IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig at iem.at>
> Subject: Re: [PD] jMax Phoenix
> To: pd-list at iem.at
> Date: Thursday, September 23, 2010, 9:20 AM
> On 2010-09-22 20:04, Jonathan Wilkes
> wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, Max/MSP's [if] object has a more readable
> syntax.  Yet even 
> 
> i don't know max's [if], but i guess you could basically
> implement this
> with an abstraction.
> 
> > with the two nested "ifs" I find it easier to read
> than your 
> > implementation because I don't have to look up to the
> inlet to 
> > remind myself which list elements correspond to which
> variable.
> > 
> 
> yes, but i believe this is because you are very used to
> C-like
> languages, so you assume that expr's if looks like: "if
> <condition>,
> <then>, <else>".
> you have been trained on that, probably since high school
> (and
> eventually used it before) [*]. if you had been fed on
> perl, you might
> find other things more easily to read.
> 
> 
> > I could put comments closer to each object chain, but
> then that's 
> > even more objects.
> 
> so?
> 
> we all know that source-lines-of-code has nothing to do
> with raedability
> nor complexity.
> more objects doesn't mean that the code is better OR worse
> to read.
> 
> (though of course it might be preferrable that the code
> makes it clear
> what is going on without having to resort to comments).
> 
> >> and as a matter of fact, i don't think the
> >> pd-implementation of the
> >> algorithm is so bad.
> > 
> > Yes, IMO the way you implemented it is nice because
> there are 
> > very few wires crossing over objects.
> 
> i think the main problems come from people trying to
> implement C-like
> control flow in a dataflow language like Pd.
> even my implementation was only trying to reproduce the
> algorithm you
> wrote down, rather than trying to figure a Pd-way to
> implement pong.
> 
> you can make _very_ elegant super-readable control flow
> with the use of
> [route] and friends.
> 
> 
> > 
> > I'd also mention I find it more difficult to patch
> your 
> > implementation because there are 25 objects (not
> including the 
> > number boxes), 16 of which correspond to the args of
> [expr] in 
> > my implementation.  That's 16 objects for which I
> have to change 
> > modes between the mouse (for connections) and the
> keyboard (for 
> > text).
> 
> 
> if you find it difficult to patch 25 objects, then you
> should get
> yourself accustomed to keyboard short-cuts.
> if you need go to the menu->put->object for each of
> the 25 objects, then
> i understand your concerns. with Ctrl-1 i don't see the
> problem with
> patching 25 or 3 objects.

I use keyboard shortcuts but they don't help the problem of 
lining up objects with the mouse or with <shift-arrow>, and 
of making connections between objects which requires a click in 
a very specific place.  Actually I find making 24 connections, 
one-at-a-time with the mouse to be the most tedious part of the 
whole ordeal.  If I could just imagine the wires into existence 
then I might not use [expr] as much as I do.

> 
> 
> > 
> > With [expr] I find it conceptually easier (and more
> ergonomic) to 
> > set up my [v] objects, my [sel], and my [outlet], then
> code the 
> > entire algorithm inside one box.
> 
> i hardly ever use [value].
> i think it doesn't integrate so well into the patcher
> paradigm, thus
> making you want to program C-like rather than Pd-like.

That's only true when using it in conjunction with [expr].  At 
least the other times I've used it have been basically a 
shortcut for:
[s]
  |
[f]

> 
> that's not to say that i never use [value], it surely has
> its merits.
> 
> > 
> > Btw- you can get rid of 3 overlapping wires if you put
> [value py] 
> > closest to [unpack 0 0 0] and cascade them that way.
> 
> btw, i'm not very interested in getting rid of all
> overlapping wires.
> spaghetti code is probably something that is unreadable,
> but the odd
> overlapping wire is something my brain has adapted to
> decyphering very well.
> 
> fgmasdr
> IOhannes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [*] note that i went to highschool in austria around 1990;
> things might
> have changed substantially since then.
> 
> 
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