[PD] translate the Start Here! page

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On 01/03/2013 06:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
>> To: Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Pd List <pd-list at iem.at>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 4:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
>>
>> On 01/02/2013 06:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>>  From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
>>>>  To: Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com>
>>>>  Cc: Pd List <pd-list at iem.at>
>>>>  Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 10:05 AM
>>>>  Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Jan 1, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>>>   From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
>>>>>>   To: Pd List <pd-list at iem.at>
>>>>>>   Cc: 
>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:35 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I just had another thought as for a way to provide more 
>> native-language 
>>>>  help
>>>>>>   in Pd-extended.  In the Help menu is the "Start 
>> Here!" item 
>>>>  which 
>>>>>>   takes you to
>>>>>>   http://puredata.info/docs/StartHere.  I've made it 
>> possible to set 
>>>>  that URL 
>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>   the translation, so there can be 
>>>>  http://puredata.info/docs/PourCommencer and
>>>>>>   http://puredata.info/docs/ここから始めましょう etc. That page is a short 
>> wiki
>>>>>>   page to tell people where they can get more help for learning 
>> Pd in 
>>>>  their
>>>>>>   native language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Also, that link could point to any webpage, it doesn't 
>> need to be
>>>>>>   puredata.info.  But it should be a community oriented site 
>> where people 
>>>>  can
>>>>>>   edit the page to improve it, IMHO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   To change the URL in your language, edit the translation:
>>>>>>   
>> https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/pd-extended/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   .hc
>>>>>
>>>>>   You should update that page before encouraging translation.  
>> Otherwise
>>>>>   the translators will include links to unmaintained projects like 
>> the Pd 
>>>>  FLOSS
>>>>>   Manual as has already happened.
>>>>
>>>>  Which link do you think should be removed?  There isn't an official 
>>
>>>>  maintainer to the FLOSS Manuals english book, but its still quite good.
>>>
>>>  The FLOSS Pure Data Manual has a big, static, unmaintainable list of
>>>  objects by category that gets more out of date every time pd-extended
>>>  drops or adds a library.
>>>
>>>  Example of how this problem manifests itself:
>>>
>> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.puredata.general/82173/focus=82174
>>>
>>>  Notice that this user presumably followed a very reasonable path to finding
>>>  objects: puredata.info -> FLOSS Manual -> FLOSS Manual Object List 
>> -> broken objects
>>>  in his/her instance of Pd.
>>>
>>>  Also notice that a large portion of the FLOSS Manual object list 
>> doesn't even
>>>  specify what library the externals belong to.
>>>
>>>  Also notice that the specific objects which the user asked about 
>> weren't even
>>>  updated in the manual after the thread had ended, nor to date.
>>>
>>>  Also notice that neither you nor I are the least bit interested in fixing 
>> these
>>>  problems in the FLOSS manual, and we're especially not interested in 
>> taking
>>>  it on as a long term project.  Who does that leave?  If it leaves anyone
>>>  wouldn't their time be better spent fixing the doc problems listed on 
>> the tracker
>>>  than etching in stone a description of a moving target?
>>
>> That listing is indeed problematic, but I think most of the problems could be
>> addressed by better describing what that listing is.  For example, the user in
>> that thread was not aware of how to load libraries, i.e. [import] or [declare
>> -lib].
> 
> That's irrelevant in the case of object classes for which the library isn't even
> listed.
> 
>> That's something that should be described in that book anyhow.
>>
>> I'm very much interested in maintaining the FLOSS manuals book, and I've
>> contributed to it in the past.  These days, my time for Pd is quite limited.
>> But I will try to find time to update key bits like that.
>>
> 
> If you do find the time just use it to delete the entire static table of objects
> and replace it with the sentence "Click the Help menu and choose Search".
> Seriously, why would anyone spend time maintaining that when a) Pd vanilla
> users already have a static list with descriptions and b) Pd-extended now
> allows you to search by category?

Yes, searching makes much more sense most of the time.  And there is even the
option for browsing in Pd-extended as well.  I'm ok with removing that
section, but I think we should try to get more input from people before
removing it.

One thing that should be easy to do is to 'unpublish' that section, so that it
would only be visible in the edit mode.  Then we can see who complains.

.hc