[PD] [announce] Integra Live 1.5 released

Fri Jan 18 22:13:22 CET 2013

On 18/01/13 20:40, Leandro da Mota Damasceno wrote:
> So if we wanted to improve the GUI we would have to drop tcl/tk all
> together or make it messy and heavy?

Or simply have Pd as the engine and devise funkier GUI stuff outside 
which can communicate with Pd, so that one concentrate on the dataflow 
(once I said "dsp" and got slapped by Mathieu :) in Pd and on making a 
beutiful gui somewhere else...

Gripd was a good example of the concept I thik:
http://crca.ucsd.edu/~jsarlo/gripd/

I feel more and more this idea of the separation of content and 
presentation/interface as I had (sic) to use max since ages I was 
avoiding it, and I find the complete mixture of 'guiness' and curviness 
makes me dizzy and disctracts me all the time, for example I often whant 
to grab patch chords to delete them and some silly pop-up will come out. 
It looks like the content + presentation mixture we have with HTML and 
still slowly trying to recover....

Of course on the GUI side, I'm not sure there a library out there to 
support Pd out of the box, that is sliders aren't enough...Maybe JUCE - 
http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce.php

Lorenzo.

>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com
> <mailto:jancsika at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>      >________________________________
>
>      > From: Leandro da Mota Damasceno <lemota at gmail.com
>     <mailto:lemota at gmail.com>>
>      >To: Pierre-Olivier Boulant <po.boulant at free.fr
>     <mailto:po.boulant at free.fr>>
>      >Cc: pd-list <pd-list at iem.at <mailto:pd-list at iem.at>>
>      >Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 12:33 PM
>      >Subject: Re: [PD] [announce] Integra Live 1.5 released
>      >
>      >
>      >The GUI is beautiful!!!!! That's Apache Flex? I don't think we can
>     maket tcl/tk look like that on PD, can we?
>
>
>     It's not that you can't do that in tk, it's just that tk will get in
>     the way of you doing that at nearly
>     every turn.  For example, here's the code you'd need to draw a
>     gradient on a canvas:
>
>     http://wiki.tcl.tk/6100
>
>     Buttons would have to be gifs or bitmaps created in some other
>     program (or on the fly with some
>     hacky code similar to the gradient stuff), unless you use tcl/tk 8.6
>     in which case you could use
>     pngs.  You might be able to use the half-implemented tk theming
>     engine to get a scrollbar that
>     looks like the one in Integra, but you'd probably end up using pngs
>     or something for the items in
>     the Module Library, or else pull your hair out trying to figure out
>     how to get the theme to look
>     like that on all platforms when all platforms do _not_ have the same
>     building blocks for their
>     widgets.  For Pd'ers who like the stripped down, 1990s look it is
>     serendipitous, because that is
>     all they can get without someone doing an inordinate amount of work
>     to make it
>     look any other way.  (Just find a gui made with tk that looks
>     anything like Integra.)
>
>     But I do have a question about:
>
>
>     http://www.integralive.org/
>
>     Specifically, the png accompanying "Turnkey Audio Processing"--
>     specifically the outputs
>     of GranularDelay1 going to the inputs of StereoReverb1.  Look
>     quickly then answer the
>     question:
>     Does out1 connect to in1 or in2?
>
>     I'm not against bezier curves, but the GUI engine must handle them
>     with care or they'll cause
>     unnecessary problems.
>
>
>     Bezier curves make it more difficult for the user to anticipate
>     ambiguous overlaps with cords.
>     The user makes connections which are obvious in his/her mind as well
>     as obvious when they do
>     the physical work with the mouse of connecting each outlet to each
>     inlet.  (Btw, the user's
>     mouse makes a trip between outlet and inlet that is a straight line,
>     so the physical action
>     no longer correlates with the drawn representation.)  Then the mind
>     tricks
>     him/her into thinking that the GUI diagram must be as clear as the
>     mental diagram because
>     all the steps leading up to the final result were clear.  (This is
>     still a problem in Pd, but slightly less
>     so because the user is more likely to guess correctly what a
>     straight line between a and b looks
>     like, and they can consequently anticipate ambiguous overlaps and
>     attempt to avoid them before
>     making them.)  Then the user goes and teaches a class, or runs an
>     errand, and comes back to the patch
>     but the mental picture is now gone.  So he/she recreates the mental
>     image from the GUI image,
>     which is ambiguous, which requires either more work to remember the
>     "real" connection or
>     actually manipulating the GUI cord with the mouse to see what really
>     connects to what.  Requiring
>     either type of work breaks with the philosophy of being able to
>     deduce what the patch does simply
>     by looking at it.  (Btw, I'm still not sure whether your cords
>     overlap or not.)
>
>
>     So cords should try to repel each other in such a situation, or at
>     least color themselves differently
>     when they do in fact overlap.  Otherwise you end up with the
>     equivalent of a scheme IDE that
>     sometimes matches a closing parenthesis with two "candidate" opening
>     parentheses but doesn't
>     indicate which is the actual match.  Nobody would tolerate such an
>     ambiguity in a text-based
>     langauge.  We shouldn't in GUIs, either.
>
>     -Jonathan
>
>
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Pierre-Olivier Boulant
>     <po.boulant at free.fr <mailto:po.boulant at free.fr>> wrote:
>      >
>      >No problem about the report. :)
>      >>
>      >>I'm here if you need further testing too. Look me up on IRC
>     freenode #dataflow. I'm "pob" over there.
>      >>
>      >>For what it's worth, the only interaction I have with the GUI is
>     when closing. I can actually click on the buttons of the "save" pop
>     up window.
>      >>
>      >>Cheers
>      >>Pierre-Olivier
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>On 18/01/2013 17:15, Jamie Bullock wrote:
>      >>
>      >>On 18 Jan 2013, at 15:48, Pierre-Olivier Boulant
>     <po.boulant at free.fr <mailto:po.boulant at free.fr>> wrote:
>      >>>
>      >>>
>      >>>Hi,
>      >>>>
>      >>>>It looks very nice indeed.
>      >>>>
>      >>>>Running the Windows version, I have a problem with the mouse.
>      >>>>I can't interact at all with the GUI. I can click on the menu
>     bar (File Edit View etc.), this much works but that's it. The GUI
>     does not respond to any clicks.
>      >>>>
>      >>>>Windows 7, 64bit OS.
>      >>>>
>      >>>I'm sorry to hear that. I must admit, we haven't yet tested on
>     64-bit Windows, so it's possibly to do with that.
>      >>>
>      >>>I hope you don't mind but I've added your report to the
>     UserVoice forum:
>      >>>
>      >>>
>     http://integralive.uservoice.com/forums/58883-general/suggestions/3565091-mouse-interaction-not-working-on-64-bit-windows
>      >>>
>      >>>If you "vote" for the issue, you will get an automatic
>     notification when it is resolved.
>      >>>
>      >>>Jamie
>      >>>
>      >>
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