[PD] [announce] Integra Live 1.5 released

Fri Jan 18 22:14:52 CET 2013

>________________________________
> From: Leandro da Mota Damasceno <lemota at gmail.com>
>To: Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com> 
>Cc: Pierre-Olivier Boulant <po.boulant at free.fr>; pd-list <pd-list at iem.at> 
>Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 2:40 PM
>Subject: Re: [PD] [announce] Integra Live 1.5 released
> 
>
>So if we wanted to improve the GUI we would have to drop tcl/tk all together or make it messy and heavy?

Depends on which features of the interface you want to improve.  Ivica improved the logic
that controls when scrollbars appear in a patch in Pd-l2ork, as well as more efficient
movement and manipulation of iemguis.  However, stuff like gradients in a patch, zooming
on a canvas, better handling of fonts, and many other issues require "messes" of code.

-Jonathan

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>On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>________________________________
>>
>>> From: Leandro da Mota Damasceno <lemota at gmail.com>
>>>To: Pierre-Olivier Boulant <po.boulant at free.fr>
>>>Cc: pd-list <pd-list at iem.at>
>>>Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 12:33 PM
>>
>>>Subject: Re: [PD] [announce] Integra Live 1.5 released
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>The GUI is beautiful!!!!! That's Apache Flex? I don't think we can maket tcl/tk look like that on PD, can we?
>>
>>
>>It's not that you can't do that in tk, it's just that tk will get in the way of you doing that at nearly
>>every turn.  For example, here's the code you'd need to draw a gradient on a canvas:
>>
>>http://wiki.tcl.tk/6100
>>
>>Buttons would have to be gifs or bitmaps created in some other program (or on the fly with some
>>hacky code similar to the gradient stuff), unless you use tcl/tk 8.6 in which case you could use
>>pngs.  You might be able to use the half-implemented tk theming engine to get a scrollbar that
>>looks like the one in Integra, but you'd probably end up using pngs or something for the items in
>>the Module Library, or else pull your hair out trying to figure out how to get the theme to look
>>like that on all platforms when all platforms do _not_ have the same building blocks for their
>>widgets.  For Pd'ers who like the stripped down, 1990s look it is serendipitous, because that is
>>all they can get without someone doing an inordinate amount of work to make it
>>look any other way.  (Just find a gui made with tk that looks anything like Integra.)
>>
>>But I do have a question about:
>>
>>
>>http://www.integralive.org/
>>
>>Specifically, the png accompanying "Turnkey Audio Processing"-- specifically the outputs
>>of GranularDelay1 going to the inputs of StereoReverb1.  Look quickly then answer the
>>question:
>>Does out1 connect to in1 or in2?
>>
>>I'm not against bezier curves, but the GUI engine must handle them with care or they'll cause
>>unnecessary problems.
>>
>>
>>Bezier curves make it more difficult for the user to anticipate ambiguous overlaps with cords.
>>The user makes connections which are obvious in his/her mind as well as obvious when they do
>>the physical work with the mouse of connecting each outlet to each inlet.  (Btw, the user's
>>mouse makes a trip between outlet and inlet that is a straight line, so the physical action
>>no longer correlates with the drawn representation.)  Then the mind tricks
>>him/her into thinking that the GUI diagram must be as clear as the mental diagram because
>>all the steps leading up to the final result were clear.  (This is still a problem in Pd, but slightly less
>>so because the user is more likely to guess correctly what a straight line between a and b looks
>>like, and they can consequently anticipate ambiguous overlaps and attempt to avoid them before
>>making them.)  Then the user goes and teaches a class, or runs an errand, and comes back to the patch
>>but the mental picture is now gone.  So he/she recreates the mental image from the GUI image,
>>which is ambiguous, which requires either more work to remember the "real" connection or
>>actually manipulating the GUI cord with the mouse to see what really connects to what.  Requiring
>>either type of work breaks with the philosophy of being able to deduce what the patch does simply
>>by looking at it.  (Btw, I'm still not sure whether your cords overlap or not.)
>>
>>
>>So cords should try to repel each other in such a situation, or at least color themselves differently
>>when they do in fact overlap.  Otherwise you end up with the equivalent of a scheme IDE that
>>sometimes matches a closing parenthesis with two "candidate" opening parentheses but doesn't
>>indicate which is the actual match.  Nobody would tolerate such an ambiguity in a text-based
>>langauge.  We shouldn't in GUIs, either.
>>
>>-Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Pierre-Olivier Boulant <po.boulant at free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>No problem about the report. :)
>>>>
>>>>I'm here if you need further testing too. Look me up on IRC freenode #dataflow. I'm "pob" over there.
>>>>
>>>>For what it's worth, the only interaction I have with the GUI is when closing. I can actually click on the buttons of the "save" pop up window.
>>>>
>>>>Cheers
>>>>Pierre-Olivier
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 18/01/2013 17:15, Jamie Bullock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>On 18 Jan 2013, at 15:48, Pierre-Olivier Boulant <po.boulant at free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It looks very nice indeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Running the Windows version, I have a problem with the mouse.
>>>>>>I can't interact at all with the GUI. I can click on the menu bar (File Edit View etc.), this much works but that's it. The GUI does not respond to any clicks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Windows 7, 64bit OS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>I'm sorry to hear that. I must admit, we haven't yet tested on 64-bit Windows, so it's possibly to do with that.
>>>>>
>>>>>I hope you don't mind but I've added your report to the UserVoice forum:
>>>>>
>>>>>        http://integralive.uservoice.com/forums/58883-general/suggestions/3565091-mouse-interaction-not-working-on-64-bit-windows
>>>>>
>>>>>If you "vote" for the issue, you will get an automatic notification when it is resolved.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jamie
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
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