[PD] Help with OSX App minefield

Mon Nov 4 19:42:50 CET 2013

On 11/04/2013 09:51 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> On 10/22/2013 12:55 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>> On 10/21/2013 11:18 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>>> On 10/21/2013 03:59 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>>>> On 10/21/2013 02:12 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>>>>> Carbon has been deprecated by Apple and might have been removed entirely.  It
>>>>> will only ever be 32-bit, and starting in 10.7, everything is 64-bit.
>>>>> Anything Carbon is dead, unless you're happy working with 10.6 and older.
>>>> I'm running Pd-extended and my Pd-l2ork port on 10.7.5.  Both link
>>>> to the Carbon system libraries.  Both run.
>>> Considering that Apple has dropped support even for some older 64-bit Macs, I
>>> think using Carbon is surely a dead end.
>>>
>>> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/07/confirmed-mountain-lion-sends-some-64-bit-macs-gently-into-that-good-night/
>>>
>> What is the relevance of what you've written and linked to?
>>
>> When I have time to look at what's required to get tkpath to use
>> the updated tkMac headers found in newer versions of tcl/tk, I'll do it.
>> Meanwhile people will have a working version of Pd-l2ork on OSX
>> to play with.
>>
>> -Jonathan
> I think I confused tkZinc and tkpath.  tkpath seems to use CoreGraphics, which
> is 64-bit.

Yes.  AFAICT, getting it to work with Cocoa is a matter of revising 
tkpath to use the revised TkMacOSXInt.h header functions and structures 
in the newer versions of tcl/tk instead of the old ones. There are some 
hints by looking at the rest of tk that uses that header and seeing how 
they changed their code.

>
> Your determination is admirable, I just think there are better areas to focus
> your efforts.  Last I checked, tkpath is not really maintained.  We should
> really be talking about pulling the GUI functions out of the Pd core, then
> people can do things like write a GUI in C++, which will be dramatically
> faster than anything written in Tcl/Tk.

But "people" aren't going to write a gui for Pd.  There is already libpd 
and I don't see a bunch of elegant and efficient Pd frontends sprouting 
up because of that.  (Though I'm sure there are a lot of projects that 
do cool things with it.)

Writing a development environment is a gargantuan task, and testing out 
tkpath was literally 3 lines of code added to pdtk_canvas.tcl. Ivica 
said getting it to work fully was more effort than that, but the fact 
that it supports tk canvas commands allows a lot of improvements to the 
interface without having to do a complete rewrite of everything g_*.[ch]

And of course removing GUI function from the Pd core can be done in 
addition to the tkpath improvements.  Once you get FUDI messages in both 
directions, you'll still have a fully-functional gui dev environment in 
tcl/tk.

I'm not convinced there are the resources in the Pd community to fund 
doing all the work required to use a different GUI toolkit, plus making 
all the redesign and testing speed improvements that another toolkit 
would bring.

-Jonathan

>
> .hc
>
>>> .hc
>>>
>>>> An update to the Pd-l2ork port:
>>>> * figured out how to build tkpath against the Carbon stuff.  It runs fine now.
>>>> * got some basic libraries compiled and installed to ship with the app.
>>>> (zexy, hcs, cyclone, and a few others).
>>>> * currently working on an issue with the Shift key "sticking"-- that is, if I
>>>> do <Shift-RightArrow> to move an object by 10 pixels, when I release
>>>> Shift and then do <RightArrow> it continues moving the object by
>>>> 10 pixels instead of 1 pixel.  Once I fix that it should be usable.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Jonathan
>>>>
>>>>> .hc
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/09/2013 10:45 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>>>>>> Update-- I've got a working Pd-l2ork, tkpath based App running on
>>>>>> OSX.  (No ppc support, unfortunately.)  Audio is running.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minefields:
>>>>>> * I cannot for the life of me figure out how to build tkpath using the
>>>>>> Tcl/tk Frameworks (Carbon-based) inside Pd-l2ork.app instead of the
>>>>>> system ones. (Tried both Xcode and command line tools).  Anybody
>>>>>> have hints for that?
>>>>>> * I can't figure out how to build the externals in "extra".  If I do
>>>>>> "make" the linker doesn't find any of the m_pd.h functions, even if
>>>>>> I do the ugly hack of copying m_pd.h to the directory.
>>>>>> * I'm abusing my function for returning the executable path in order
>>>>>> to get Pd to look for doc/ and extra/ inside the App (in addition to
>>>>>> the usual places on the system).  Is there a trick to this?
>>>>>> * key presses/releases sometimes get stuck in one state or the other.
>>>>>> I think there's some simple tcl/tk hack for ignoring autokeys that may
>>>>>> remedy this, but I'm not sure yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/07/2013 04:05 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>          I'm hoping some MacOSX gurus can help me traverse this mine-field.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I'm trying to do:
>>>>>>> Port Pd-l2ork (quick-and-dirty) to MacOSX in the form of a Pd-l2ork.app
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Minefields:
>>>>>>> * Pd-l2ork uses tkpath, which is built to work with Carbon and not Cocoa.
>>>>>>> So I
>>>>>>> must use tcl/tk Framework that uses Carbon instead of Cocoa.  That
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>> ok because Pd-extended.app is currently set up to use Carbon.
>>>>>>> * Pd-l2ork uses the old pd.tk framework instead of the newer stuff from the
>>>>>>> gui-rewrite
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I've done so far:
>>>>>>> * updated the configure file successfully
>>>>>>> * made a workaround for statbuf from stat.h not existing on OSX (in
>>>>>>> s_main.c)
>>>>>>> * made a workaround for RTLD not existing after ./configure and trying to
>>>>>>> make (s_loader.c)
>>>>>>> * successfully compiled Pd-l2ork
>>>>>>> * checked that tkpath actually works on OSX.  It seems to work, using
>>>>>>> tcl/tk
>>>>>>> w/Carbon
>>>>>>> instead of Cocoa.
>>>>>>> * used otool and install_name_tool to change libPdTcl.dylib libraries to
>>>>>>> point at the
>>>>>>> App's Framework directory instead of system directories
>>>>>>> * changed AppMain.tcl to launch pd.tk instead of pd-gui (which it does
>>>>>>> successfully)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What crashes so far:
>>>>>>> * inside pd.tk, I'm trying to do this:
>>>>>>>         load $pd_guidir/bin/libPdTcl.dylib
>>>>>>> It finds the dylib fine but then it crashes, with the crash report
>>>>>>> referencing the first line
>>>>>>> of the following function of t_tkcmd.c in the backtrace:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> int Pdtcl_Init(Tcl_Interp *interp)
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>         const char *argv = Tcl_GetVar(interp, "argv", 0);
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any ideas where to begin to debug this?  Is there some code I can add to
>>>>>>> Pdtcl_Init to print out some info I can use to tell where it's going wrong?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I put the full error log here:
>>>>>>> http://pastebin.com/duHdRrsY
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any suggestions appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Jonathan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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