[PD] Pd as sound editor (issue with "scrolling" a table) ??

[i go bananas]

>>Remember that when you redraw an element of an array you actually redraw
the _entire_ array in Pd Vanilla.  And depending on the array style you may
have a separate tk canvas item for each element.<<

why do the iem tab objects work so much better then?  maelstorm said that
it was incredibly slow using an [until] based counter, but worked smoothly
with the iem objects.  This was for EXACTLY the same gui, so i'm not really
sure if it's a gui redraw issue.

Then again, he also said that the iem tabs objects seem to process tables
in chunks...so maybe the gui is also only redrawn in those chunk sizes?
 that would make sense i guess.




On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Billy Stiltner <billy.stiltner at gmail.com>wrote:

> "So when you use the [until] loop you are sending drawing instructions to
> the GUI ($arraysize * $no_mouse_events) times.  A single array redraw
> instruction in tcl is about 4k, so to scroll a single pixel for a
> 100-element array:
> 100 elements * 1 = 100 redraws * 4k = 400k"
>
> thats why i say fix tcl/tk
> my old graphics library could be used for a new gui. it is c++ but has the
> logic to even only update lines as in blit an arbitrary line.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>>  On 03/04/2014 01:20 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>>
>> On 03/04/2014 10:11 AM, i go bananas wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 2014-03-04 12:12 GMT+01:00 i go bananas <hard.off at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>  just for interest perhaps, here's the sound editor i made years ago:
>>>>
>>>>  http://puredata.hurleur.com/sujet-1295-sound-editor
>>>>
>>>>  and probably even more interesting, here is maelstorm's wave display
>>>> abstraction:
>>>>
>>>>  http://puredata.hurleur.com/sujet-5890-waveform-display
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  basically, what maelstorm discovered was that using [until] with a
>>>> counter was not nearly fast enough to do the calculations needed for a
>>>> decent zoom/scroll function, and we looked into it, and there just didn't
>>>> seem to be a vanilla workaround.  So he uses iem_tab objects to do the
>>>> table calculations.
>>>>
>>>
>> Remember that when you redraw an element of an array you actually redraw
>> the _entire_ array in Pd Vanilla.  And depending on the array style you may
>> have a separate tk canvas item for each element.
>>
>> So when you use the [until] loop you are sending drawing instructions to
>> the GUI ($arraysize * $no_mouse_events) times.  A single array redraw
>> instruction in tcl is about 4k, so to scroll a single pixel for a
>> 100-element array:
>> 100 elements * 1 = 100 redraws * 4k = 400k
>>
>> That's flowing from the core to the GUI for a _single_ mouse event.  If
>> you trigger ten scrolls you're already at 4 megs of data sent.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure commercial editors avoid that type of design.  In editors
>> like the upcoming Openshot Video that have several discrete parts that
>> sending messages, the GUI part almost certainly sends nothing at all to the
>> video core for zooming/scrolling.  For moving a chunk of audio/video, it
>> almost certainly sends a single message about a single object's delta.
>>
>>
>> I may have showed this already, but I think it's instructive here:
>> https://jwilkes.nfshost.com/pd-tiger.webm
>>
>> I don't have sound on that clip, but I believe I tried it with the "test
>> audio" patch going and I wasn't getting dropouts.  This is because a) I'm
>> sending a single transform message for every scroll of the number box and
>> b) the GUI toolkit-- not Pd core-- is doing the math to transform and
>> redisplay the drawing.
>>
>> Socket traffic is bad because it require both the core (sending) and GUI
>> (receiving) to do work.  If you generate megs and megs of traffic you can
>> end up with dropouts and choking display even if there's very little being
>> redrawn.
>>
>> -Jonathan
>>
>>
>> -Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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