[PD] Pd as sound editor (issue with "scrolling" a table) ??

[Billy Stiltner]

i will look into it next week after my social escapades


On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 4:36 AM, i go bananas <hard.off at gmail.com> wrote:

> >>Remember that when you redraw an element of an array you actually
> redraw the _entire_ array in Pd Vanilla.  And depending on the array style
> you may have a separate tk canvas item for each element.<<
>
> why do the iem tab objects work so much better then?  maelstorm said that
> it was incredibly slow using an [until] based counter, but worked smoothly
> with the iem objects.  This was for EXACTLY the same gui, so i'm not really
> sure if it's a gui redraw issue.
>
> Then again, he also said that the iem tabs objects seem to process tables
> in chunks...so maybe the gui is also only redrawn in those chunk sizes?
>  that would make sense i guess.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Billy Stiltner <billy.stiltner at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> "So when you use the [until] loop you are sending drawing instructions to
>> the GUI ($arraysize * $no_mouse_events) times.  A single array redraw
>> instruction in tcl is about 4k, so to scroll a single pixel for a
>> 100-element array:
>> 100 elements * 1 = 100 redraws * 4k = 400k"
>>
>> thats why i say fix tcl/tk
>> my old graphics library could be used for a new gui. it is c++ but has
>> the logic to even only update lines as in blit an arbitrary line.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>
>>>  On 03/04/2014 01:20 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
>>>
>>> On 03/04/2014 10:11 AM, i go bananas wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2014-03-04 12:12 GMT+01:00 i go bananas <hard.off at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>>  just for interest perhaps, here's the sound editor i made years ago:
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://puredata.hurleur.com/sujet-1295-sound-editor
>>>>>
>>>>>  and probably even more interesting, here is maelstorm's wave display
>>>>> abstraction:
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://puredata.hurleur.com/sujet-5890-waveform-display
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  basically, what maelstorm discovered was that using [until] with a
>>>>> counter was not nearly fast enough to do the calculations needed for a
>>>>> decent zoom/scroll function, and we looked into it, and there just didn't
>>>>> seem to be a vanilla workaround.  So he uses iem_tab objects to do the
>>>>> table calculations.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> Remember that when you redraw an element of an array you actually redraw
>>> the _entire_ array in Pd Vanilla.  And depending on the array style you may
>>> have a separate tk canvas item for each element.
>>>
>>> So when you use the [until] loop you are sending drawing instructions to
>>> the GUI ($arraysize * $no_mouse_events) times.  A single array redraw
>>> instruction in tcl is about 4k, so to scroll a single pixel for a
>>> 100-element array:
>>> 100 elements * 1 = 100 redraws * 4k = 400k
>>>
>>> That's flowing from the core to the GUI for a _single_ mouse event.  If
>>> you trigger ten scrolls you're already at 4 megs of data sent.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure commercial editors avoid that type of design.  In
>>> editors like the upcoming Openshot Video that have several discrete parts
>>> that sending messages, the GUI part almost certainly sends nothing at all
>>> to the video core for zooming/scrolling.  For moving a chunk of
>>> audio/video, it almost certainly sends a single message about a single
>>> object's delta.
>>>
>>>
>>> I may have showed this already, but I think it's instructive here:
>>> https://jwilkes.nfshost.com/pd-tiger.webm
>>>
>>> I don't have sound on that clip, but I believe I tried it with the "test
>>> audio" patch going and I wasn't getting dropouts.  This is because a) I'm
>>> sending a single transform message for every scroll of the number box and
>>> b) the GUI toolkit-- not Pd core-- is doing the math to transform and
>>> redisplay the drawing.
>>>
>>> Socket traffic is bad because it require both the core (sending) and GUI
>>> (receiving) to do work.  If you generate megs and megs of traffic you can
>>> end up with dropouts and choking display even if there's very little being
>>> redrawn.
>>>
>>> -Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>> -Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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