[PD] Artikulation - datastructures
Lorenzo Sutton
lorenzofsutton at gmail.com
Tue Dec 9 22:40:36 CET 2014
On 09/12/14 20:41, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> Essentially, you want functionality inside Pd so that you can draw
> connections between boxes in order to create a program. Creative people
> often want to make GUIs, and making GUIs is hard. So it makes sense to
> have functionality within Pd that lets people make GUIs with boxes and
> connections. If the data flowing over the wires can just as easily flow
> to the signal graph as it can to the GUI properties, the benefits are
> obvious.
Of course, I'm not saying we shouldn't have GUIs in Pd, which we do. The
aesthetics of those GUIs is something different (I have always liked
them :-) - and hard to really fit into the typical toolkits even
(proprietary and non) audio/multimedia programmes have non-standard GUIs
think Max MSP, but also DAWs, Blender...
>
> Inter-process communication is great. But it adds an enormous amount of
> difficulty for the non-technical user, and many creative types are
> non-technical (read: not sysadmins). IPC adds complexity; but the
> bigger issue is that most IPC interfaces are designed for sysadmins. If
> they were designed with non-technical users in mind, then you'd be able
> to send me some standard, cross-platform file type which I could
> (safely) click to open both iannix and Pd and create the connection
> between them.
I don't think opening two programmes and (e.g.Iannix and Pd) and knowing
that you can 'connect' the output of one programme to another one is a
highly technical concept. Maybe it is not so typical, especially for
non-linux users... Of course it helps if OSC (which the user doesn't
necessarily have to know the technicalities and details of) works out of
the box in Pd.
>
> If you could just display an svg in a Pd patch, you could simply send me
> your patch and svg and I could take a look at a working example of your
> tape piece.
Ditto. Someone (TM) just needs to write an SVG display external :-)
I could also set up qjackctl and whatever else you used to
> get your unix-style implementation to work.
>
> One approach requires clicking an icon, the other makes me cringe a
> little when I think about just setting up the environment to view it.
> And I'm a Debian user comfortable with the command line and familiar
> with qjackctl. Take those skills away and leave only my curiousity
> about your approach-- the practical consequence is that I probably
> wouldn't be able to get up and running to experiment with it. At least
> without devoting more time, and that's not something many creative types
> have.
Again while I agree that SVG is a corner case, IMHO jack and qjackctl
isn't rocket science, especially as it uses the 'connecting cables'
metaphore many audio/music people are familiar and combfortable with.
Lorenzo.
>
> -Jonathan
> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 7:49 AM, Lorenzo Sutton
> <lorenzofsutton at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> One nice thing about the unix philosophy from a cretive person's point
> of view is that you do not necessarily have to use one, monolithic tool
> (software) to do everything.
> IMHO this leaves much more space to expreimentation, trial, unorthodox
> ways of doing things, eventually less standardised and less canned
> creations.
>
> This may sound a bit provocative.. but, do we really need to do
> 'everything' in Pd? For example for realtime scores this is rather
> interesting (and I must say quite appealing visually):
>
> www.iannix.org
>
> It uses OSC, which Pd supports (not sure what the 'out-of-the-box'
> vanilla support status is.. anyway).
>
> For a piano + electronics (a.k.a. 'tape') piece I once used Inkscape for
> an expressive representation of the electronic part matched to the piano
> part in traditional notation... I was using qjackctrl always on top to
> play the piece and keep track of the bars, and had to hack the SVG to
> import the Lilipond score :-)
>
> Bottom line. The best IMHO is that Pd is very interoperable at various
> levels, so JACK audio, midi, OSC, FUDI, TCP, [your favouritestandard here].
>
> Then obviously this doesn't _exclude_ the fact that (usable) data
> structures are nice :-)
>
> My two cents.
> Lorenzo.
>
> On 04/12/2014 10:35, Julian Brooks wrote:
> > There is a fairly long-standing tradition of graphic scores made,
> > post-copmosition, of electronic music - standard practice in
> > Electroacoustic tuition for example.
> >
> > Yet there still isn't much around that makes the auditory/visual
> > connection explicit (Xenakis' UPIC and its derivatives being one of
> > the classic examples).
> >
> > For those interested in notational aspects and approaches within
> > electronic music just the idea itself of data structures is hugely
> > stimulating - you could even go so far to state that it's somewhat of
> > a 'holy grail'.
> >
> > I'm interested in data structures precisely because they don't work so
> > well - it's a worthwhile problem. The now well-worn, almost clichéd
> > story that DS's were one of the major original impetuses for Pd's
> > existence, and 20 years later they're still a work in progress, I
> > think shows that this shit ain't easy.
> >
> > Hans' DS composition from a few years back has travelled far and wide
> > (it's in one of the classic recent books on graphic scores - on the
> > front cover even!) so it's a shame that there's not much else to show
> > for them in recent years.
> >
> > Ligeti rocks btw, proper hardcore.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Julian
> >
> > On 4 December 2014 at 09:10, i go bananas <hard.off at gmail.com
> <mailto:hard.off at gmail.com>
> > <mailto:hard.off at gmail.com <mailto:hard.off at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > and how many years work would it take to do that in pd data
> > structures?
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Chris McCormick
> > <chris at mccormick.cx <mailto:chris at mccormick.cx>
> <mailto:chris at mccormick.cx <mailto:chris at mccormick.cx>>> wrote:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71hNl_skTZQ
> > --
> > http://mccormick.cx/
> >
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