[PD] Artikulation - datastructures

Lorenzo Sutton lorenzofsutton at gmail.com
Tue Dec 9 22:40:36 CET 2014


On 09/12/14 20:41, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> Essentially, you want functionality inside Pd so that you can draw
> connections between boxes in order to create a program.  Creative people
> often want to make GUIs, and making GUIs is hard.  So it makes sense to
> have functionality within Pd that lets people make GUIs with boxes and
> connections.  If the data flowing over the wires can just as easily flow
> to the signal graph as it can to the GUI properties, the benefits are
> obvious.

Of course, I'm not saying we shouldn't have GUIs in Pd, which we do. The 
aesthetics of those GUIs is something different (I have always liked 
them :-) - and hard to really fit into the typical toolkits even 
(proprietary and non) audio/multimedia programmes have non-standard GUIs 
think Max MSP, but also DAWs, Blender...

>
> Inter-process communication is great.  But it adds an enormous amount of
> difficulty for the non-technical user, and many creative types are
> non-technical (read: not sysadmins).  IPC adds complexity; but the
> bigger issue is that most IPC interfaces are designed for sysadmins.  If
> they were designed with non-technical users in mind, then you'd be able
> to send me some standard, cross-platform file type which I could
> (safely) click to open both iannix and Pd and create the connection
> between them.

I don't think opening two programmes and (e.g.Iannix and Pd) and knowing 
that you can 'connect' the output of one programme to another one is a 
highly technical concept. Maybe it is not so typical, especially for 
non-linux users... Of course it helps if OSC (which the user doesn't 
necessarily have to know the technicalities and details of) works out of 
the box in Pd.

>
> If you could just display an svg in a Pd patch, you could simply send me
> your patch and svg and I could take a look at a working example of your
> tape piece.

Ditto. Someone (TM) just needs to write an SVG display external :-)

I could also set up qjackctl and whatever else you used to
> get your unix-style implementation to work.
>
> One approach requires clicking an icon, the other makes me cringe a
> little when I think about just setting up the environment to view it.
> And I'm a Debian user comfortable with the command line and familiar
> with qjackctl.  Take those skills away and leave only my curiousity
> about your approach-- the practical consequence is that I probably
> wouldn't be able to get up and running to experiment with it.  At least
> without devoting more time, and that's not something many creative types
> have.

Again while I agree that SVG is a corner case, IMHO jack and qjackctl 
isn't rocket science, especially as it uses the 'connecting cables' 
metaphore many audio/music people are familiar and combfortable with.

Lorenzo.

>
> -Jonathan
> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 7:49 AM, Lorenzo Sutton
> <lorenzofsutton at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> One nice thing about the unix philosophy from a cretive person's point
> of view is that you do not necessarily have to use one, monolithic tool
> (software) to do everything.
> IMHO this leaves much more space to expreimentation, trial, unorthodox
> ways of doing things, eventually less standardised and less canned
> creations.
>
> This may sound a bit provocative.. but, do we really need to do
> 'everything' in Pd? For example for realtime scores this is rather
> interesting (and I must say quite appealing visually):
>
> www.iannix.org
>
> It uses OSC, which Pd supports (not sure what the 'out-of-the-box'
> vanilla support status is.. anyway).
>
> For a piano + electronics (a.k.a. 'tape') piece I once used Inkscape for
> an expressive representation of the electronic part matched to the piano
> part in traditional notation... I was using qjackctrl always on top to
> play the piece and keep track of the bars, and had to hack the SVG to
> import the Lilipond score :-)
>
> Bottom line. The best IMHO is that Pd is very interoperable at various
> levels, so JACK audio, midi, OSC, FUDI, TCP, [your favouritestandard here].
>
> Then obviously this doesn't _exclude_ the fact that (usable) data
> structures are nice :-)
>
> My two cents.
> Lorenzo.
>
> On 04/12/2014 10:35, Julian Brooks wrote:
>  > There is a fairly long-standing tradition of graphic scores made,
>  > post-copmosition, of electronic music - standard practice in
>  > Electroacoustic tuition for example.
>  >
>  > Yet there still isn't much around that makes the auditory/visual
>  > connection explicit (Xenakis' UPIC and its derivatives being one of
>  > the classic examples).
>  >
>  > For those interested in notational aspects and approaches within
>  > electronic music just the idea itself of data structures is hugely
>  > stimulating - you could even go so far to state that it's somewhat of
>  > a 'holy grail'.
>  >
>  > I'm interested in data structures precisely because they don't work so
>  > well - it's a worthwhile problem.  The now well-worn, almost clich├ęd
>  > story that DS's were one of the major original impetuses for Pd's
>  > existence, and 20 years later they're still a work in progress, I
>  > think shows that this shit ain't easy.
>  >
>  > Hans' DS composition from a few years back has travelled far and wide
>  > (it's in one of the classic recent books on graphic scores - on the
>  > front cover even!) so it's a shame that there's not much else to show
>  > for them in recent years.
>  >
>  > Ligeti rocks btw, proper hardcore.
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  >
>  > Julian
>  >
>  > On 4 December 2014 at 09:10, i go bananas <hard.off at gmail.com
> <mailto:hard.off at gmail.com>
>  > <mailto:hard.off at gmail.com <mailto:hard.off at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>  >
>  >    and how many years work would it take to do that in pd data
>  >    structures?
>  >
>  >    On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Chris McCormick
>  >    <chris at mccormick.cx <mailto:chris at mccormick.cx>
> <mailto:chris at mccormick.cx <mailto:chris at mccormick.cx>>> wrote:
>  >
>  > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71hNl_skTZQ
>  >        --
>  > http://mccormick.cx/
>  >
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