[PD] Does Pd have a "sound"?
David Medine
dmedine at ucsd.edu
Mon Feb 15 00:46:46 CET 2016
I've noticed a pretty substantial "quality" difference between using
floats and doubles for certain things as well. I'm not sure how this all
shakes down, since it depends not only on the programming environment,
but also the audio API (e.g. portaudio --last time I looked at it --
doesn't support double precision floating point values...)
On 02/14/2016 03:23 PM, Matt Barber wrote:
> What's really needed is blind A/B tests of "the same" or very similar
> sounds made in each.
>
> A couple of notes: SC's cubic interpolator is different from Pd's
> (which is the same as csound's). Pd's [osc~] probably ought to be
> replaced with [tabosc4~] for some things.
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Matti Viljamaa <mviljamaa at kapsi.fi
> <mailto:mviljamaa at kapsi.fi>> wrote:
>
> At the very least it could be interesting to figure out what’s
> causing the “lesser quality” sound perception.
>
> Then perhaps make a .pd patch containing “high quality
> implementations”.
>
> I’m not talking about effects, but more like the “basics” such as
> oscillators and whether they’re somehow fixed to sound “Pd”, or
> whether it’s possible to model better (or any kind of) sounds in Pd.
>
> -Matti
>
>> On 15 Feb 2016, at 01:09, Samuel Burt
>> <composer.samuel.burt at gmail.com
>> <mailto:composer.samuel.burt at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> If anything Pd's sound would be related to its 64 sample block
>> size that is mostly evident when people don't use sample rate
>> line~ objects to smooth their signals.
>>
>> I'd say many other audio environments provide easy tools for
>> dynamics management, reverberation, and EQ. This creates a
>> particular sound for those environments. The fact that you have
>> to build these from scratch in Pd causes me to assume that the
>> easiest to build routines for these purposes would influence the
>> sound of neophyte patches, but as people develope more
>> sophisticated and original processes, there would be a
>> significant diverging of sonic characteristics between patches.
>>
>> One final thing that might influence the "sound" of Pd or Max is
>> the use of whole numbers to represent frequencies and time values
>> that are determined in milliseconds. This might make a lot of
>> patches sound like they are based on the harmonic spectrum of 1Hz.
>>
>> TLDR: If you want a more sophisticated sound, use line~ objects
>> to smooth signal rate control of audio processes, build your own
>> dynamics management, reverberation, and filter told, and make
>> sure to use a variety of floating point numbers or other special
>> ratios to determine frequencies and durations. At this point, I
>> don't think people could tell your sound came from Pd.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 00:27:08 +0200
>> From: Matti Viljamaa <mviljamaa at kapsi.fi
>> <mailto:mviljamaa at kapsi.fi>>
>> To: Pd-List <pd-list at lists.iem.at <mailto:pd-list at lists.iem.at>>
>> Subject: [PD] Does Pd have a "sound"?
>> Message-ID: <D9A862C4-2F6E-4BFB-9D7D-B48A0DEC5A82 at kapsi.fi
>> <mailto:D9A862C4-2F6E-4BFB-9D7D-B48A0DEC5A82 at kapsi.fi>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Do you think Pd has a characteristic sound to it? Or whether
>> discussion board threads claiming Pd (and Max) have a
>> distinct (and not good) sound just have people who haven’t
>> listened to good patches?
>>
>> -Matti
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 23:32:18 +0100
>> From: Antoine Rousseau <antoine at metalu.net
>> <mailto:antoine at metalu.net>>
>> To: Pd-list <pd-list at lists.iem.at <mailto:pd-list at lists.iem.at>>
>> Subject: Re: [PD] Nettles. Was: Cyclone: List of Issues with
>> existing
>> objects by Alexandre Porres
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <CAOCG5HwDcssRYAdkw9MQ1QvV-LivXDYfkVzYZaV2E1mH7znv0Q at mail.gmail.com
>> <mailto:CAOCG5HwDcssRYAdkw9MQ1QvV-LivXDYfkVzYZaV2E1mH7znv0Q at mail.gmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I've only partially followed all this discussion (not using
>> Max myself),
>> but maybe an object I wrote could help you building such
>> abstractions :
>>
>> [moonlib/dinlet~] is an [inlet~] with an init float value
>> (constant signal)
>> as an argument.
>> This default value is overloaded when a signal is connected
>> to the inlet,
>> but restored when the signal is disconnected. A float sent to
>> it would
>> overwrite the default constant value.
>>
>> Of course the init default value could be one of the
>> abstraction's
>> arguments ($xxx)...
>>
>> BUT :
>>
>> - there is a very little hack (which could be called a
>> bugfix...) that has
>> to be made to pd source (this change is written in comment in
>> the source
>> file of dinlet~). I should open a ticket for that in the
>> sourceforge repo.
>> The involved bug is mixing the different float values up when
>> [dinlet~] is
>> used together with normal [inlet]s.
>>
>> - I should add a missing feature in dinlet~, which would add
>> an inlet to
>> the [dinlet~] object itself, to allow changing the default
>> value inside of
>> the abstraction.
>>
>> If anyone think this would be helpful, I could do this (open
>> a ticket and
>> update moonlib about this missing inlet).
>>
>>
>>
>> 2016-02-14 20:29 GMT+01:00 Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list
>> <pd-list at lists.iem.at <mailto:pd-list at lists.iem.at>
>> >:
>>
>> > > Why not simply have an inlet that can handle both inside
>> an abstraction
>> > and route signal one way and number the other and then
>> sprinkle that with
>> > dynamic nlet creation and you're done? Then you can simply
>> abstract most
>> > cases.
>> >
>> > I read (and like) your spec on dynamic nlet creation, but I
>> have a problem
>> > with section 2.1 Signals:
>> >
>> > "To handle the dynamic creation of signal inlets and their
>> routing within
>> > the abstraction, the implementation must"
>> >
>> > It looks like the rest of the section is missing. :)
>> >
>> > -Jonathan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sunday, February 14, 2016 1:51 PM, Matt Barber
>> <brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I tried coding that once, but it seemed like it needed
>> some big change in
>> > architecture. Technically it's only the main signal that
>> accepts both
>> > messages and signals in this way, where you would want to
>> route the
>> > message. Floats should almost always be promoted to signals.
>> >
>> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Ivica Ico Bukvic
>> <ico at vt.edu <mailto:ico at vt.edu>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Why not simply have an inlet that can handle both inside an
>> abstraction
>> > and route signal one way and number the other and then
>> sprinkle that with
>> > dynamic nlet creation and you're done? Then you can simply
>> abstract most
>> > cases.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2/14/2016 11:36 AM, Matt Barber wrote:
>> >
>> > [gt~] is a great example of something that could work as an
>> abstraction,
>> > except for the pesky right inlet which should take a signal
>> if there's no
>> > creation argument, but float otherwise.
>> >
>> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Ivica Bukvic <ico at vt.edu
>> <mailto:ico at vt.edu>> wrote:
>> >
>> > What I am also trying to do eventually in pd-l2ork is weed
>> out redundant
>> > objects and only keep the ones that do the said task the
>> best while still
>> > supporting other objects' idiosyncrasies (if any). There is
>> absolutely no
>> > reason to have multiple objects of the same kind.
>> Ultimately, one could
>> > keep all the externals in the same folder and completely do
>> away with all
>> > the declares, imports, and other things that make learning
>> pd unnecessarily
>> > harder.
>> > --
>> > Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>> > Associate Professor
>> > Computer Music
>> > ICAT Senior Fellow
>> > Director -- DISIS, L2Ork
>> > Virginia Tech
>> > School of Performing Arts – 0141
>> > Blacksburg, VA 24061
>> > (540) 231-6139 <tel:%28540%29%20231-6139>
>> > ico at vt.edu <mailto:ico at vt.edu>
>> > www.performingarts.vt.edu <http://www.performingarts.vt.edu/>
>> > disis.icat.vt.edu <http://disis.icat.vt.edu/>
>> > l2ork.icat.vt.edu <http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu/>
>> > ico.bukvic.net <http://ico.bukvic.net/>
>> > On Feb 14, 2016 8:40 AM, "Fred Jan Kraan"
>> <fjkraan at xs4all.nl <mailto:fjkraan at xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Alexandre,
>> >
>> > guess some of it is in:
>> >
>> http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/digaud/puredata/cyclone/cycloneToDo.html
>> >
>> >
>> > This list is also becoming a list of what has been done.
>> >
>> >
>> > As with _nettles_
>> >
>> > "try to resurrect as independent object library"
>> >
>> > Anyway, tell me if this gets includes on this file.
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes, the nettles-objects are part of the latest cyclone
>> versions. They are
>> > part of the nettles library, which can be loaded with
>> [declare]. Not all
>> > operating systems like the '<' and '>' in the object names
>> and there is
>> > overlap with other library objects, so only loading them
>> when needed is
>> > cleaner.
>> >
>> >
>> > cheers
>> >
>> > ps. count me in for help with the help files
>> >
>> >
>> > Great!
>> >
>> > Greetings,
>> >
>> > Fred Jan
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-02-11 22:18 GMT-02:00 Alexandre Torres Porres
>> <porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com>
>> > <mailto:porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com>>>:
>> >
>> > Howdy, it's a known fact brazilians will start the year
>> only after
>> > carnival, so here I am.
>> >
>> > I'd like to share my list of things to do with existing
>> Cyclone
>> > Objetcs. Obviously there might be other issues with
>> other objects
>> > that would make them up to date with the current
>> version of Max (Max
>> > 7). Nonetheless, this is what I find relevant, and I've
>> been really
>> > checking it through.
>> >
>> > It's only about 11 objects, some has already been
>> discussed here and
>> > might have been fixed or in the process to be taken
>> care of, forgive
>> > me if so.
>> >
>> > I have it attached and also as a link to a google doc
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L_dUNgznfhaZHPKMJ3jJ_p9uIXRVP6Rs9-3nXy2Qlk8/edit?usp=sharing
>> >
>> > Next, I will get together a list of new objects I think
>> should be
>> > included, many of which I've already made as
>> abstractions (kind of
>> > to show how it works like I did with [teeth~], cause I
>> really think
>> > they should all be done as externals).
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> >
>> >
>> >
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