[PD] Nettles. Was: Cyclone: List of Issues with existing objects by Alexandre Porres
Jonathan Wilkes
jancsika at yahoo.com
Mon Feb 15 05:27:16 CET 2016
Ivica,The point is that with control objects one could make an object that
maps "n" abstraction inlets to a single object. That single object can
just prepend incoming messages with an index. Same with dispatching
objects to "n" outlets.
Doing it that way allows the user to create abstractions with variable xlets
without relying at all on dynamic patching. Thus the patches end up more
maintainable and easier to reason about.
You can't do the same with signal connections. So you'd have to sprout
as many outlets from your object as you have inlets, in which case it's nearly
the same complexity as dynamic patching with [inlet~].
-Jonathan
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 7:26 PM, Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com> wrote:
I asked for something like Antoine's design back in 2007. I think it's a great idea, because it behaves like a signal inlet in compiled objects.On Feb 14, 2016 6:48 PM, "Ivica Bukvic" <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list <pd-list at lists.iem.at> wrote:
Hi Antoine,We're talking about two different kinds of "dynamic" nlets. Yours seems to
set a value for the signal based on whether or not there is a connection to that
inlet. What I'm talking about is a future object that would elegantly handle
the creation of a variable number of inlets(~) or outlets(~) inside an abstraction.
I'm pressing Ivica specifically on variable signal nlets because there's no way
to flexibly handle them.
Why not? First of all, we need to agree that such an object would be mostly useful at instantiation time (e.g. a silly example would be an abstraction that mimics selector~ behavior) and in dynamic patching where after creation one would need to connect bunch of stuff to this object and ensure that inside the abstraction additional inlets actually do something. Second, let's assume the dynamic nlet creation object is the rightmost object (otherwise user is asking for potential problems if something is already connected to the second inlet and then suddenly first inlet grows a couple more inlets before the second one--even this could be potentially handled, with adequate changes inside the pd core, or in this case pd-l2ork core). Now, if new nlets are generated, they will not autoconnect to anything--this is user's responsibility likely through some sort of live or scripted patching at instantiation time which could be driven from the same argument. Once that is all taken into an account, the last thing is to consider:
suspend dspinstantiate new objectrebuild dsp graph (as you would with instantiation of any new signal objectresume dspredraw object and parent object on its parent canvases
One lingering concern is that this would effectively make the abstraction dirty which could be either seen as a good thing or handled as something that does not trigger the dirty flag.
Best,
Ico
-Jonathan
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 5:34 PM, Antoine Rousseau <antoine at metalu.net> wrote:
I've only partially followed all this discussion (not using Max myself), but maybe an object I wrote could help you building such abstractions :
[moonlib/dinlet~] is an [inlet~] with an init float value (constant signal) as an argument.
This default value is overloaded when a signal is connected to the inlet, but restored when the signal is disconnected. A float sent to it would overwrite the default constant value.
Of course the init default value could be one of the abstraction's arguments ($xxx)...
BUT :
- there is a very little hack (which could be called a bugfix...) that has to be made to pd source (this change is written in comment in the source file of dinlet~). I should open a ticket for that in the sourceforge repo. The involved bug is mixing the different float values up when [dinlet~] is used together with normal [inlet]s.
- I should add a missing feature in dinlet~, which would add an inlet to the [dinlet~] object itself, to allow changing the default value inside of the abstraction.
If anyone think this would be helpful, I could do this (open a ticket and update moonlib about this missing inlet).
2016-02-14 20:29 GMT+01:00 Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list <pd-list at lists.iem.at>:
> Why not simply have an inlet that can handle both inside an abstraction and route signal one way and number the other and then sprinkle that with dynamic nlet creation and you're done? Then you can simply abstract most cases.
I read (and like) your spec on dynamic nlet creation, but I have a problem with section 2.1 Signals:
"To handle the dynamic creation of signal inlets and their routing within the abstraction, the implementation must"
It looks like the rest of the section is missing. :)
-Jonathan
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 1:51 PM, Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com> wrote:
I tried coding that once, but it seemed like it needed some big change in architecture. Technically it's only the main signal that accepts both messages and signals in this way, where you would want to route the message. Floats should almost always be promoted to signals.
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Ivica Ico Bukvic <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
Why not simply have an inlet that can handle both inside an abstraction and route signal one way and number the other and then sprinkle that with dynamic nlet creation and you're done? Then you can simply abstract most cases.
On 2/14/2016 11:36 AM, Matt Barber wrote:
[gt~] is a great example of something that could work as an abstraction, except for the pesky right inlet which should take a signal if there's no creation argument, but float otherwise.
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Ivica Bukvic <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
What I am also trying to do eventually in pd-l2ork is weed out redundant objects and only keep the ones that do the said task the best while still supporting other objects' idiosyncrasies (if any). There is absolutely no reason to have multiple objects of the same kind. Ultimately, one could keep all the externals in the same folder and completely do away with all the declares, imports, and other things that make learning pd unnecessarily harder. --
Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
Associate Professor
Computer Music
ICAT Senior Fellow
Director -- DISIS, L2Ork
Virginia Tech
School of Performing Arts – 0141
Blacksburg, VA 24061
(540) 231-6139
ico at vt.edu
www.performingarts.vt.edu
disis.icat.vt.edu
l2ork.icat.vt.edu
ico.bukvic.net On Feb 14, 2016 8:40 AM, "Fred Jan Kraan" <fjkraan at xs4all.nl> wrote:
Hi Alexandre,
guess some of it is in:
http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/digaud/puredata/cyclone/cycloneToDo.html
This list is also becoming a list of what has been done.
As with _nettles_
"try to resurrect as independent object library"
Anyway, tell me if this gets includes on this file.
Yes, the nettles-objects are part of the latest cyclone versions. They are part of the nettles library, which can be loaded with [declare]. Not all operating systems like the '<' and '>' in the object names and there is overlap with other library objects, so only loading them when needed is cleaner.
cheers
ps. count me in for help with the help files
Great!
Greetings,
Fred Jan
2016-02-11 22:18 GMT-02:00 Alexandre Torres Porres <porres at gmail.com
<mailto:porres at gmail.com>>:
Howdy, it's a known fact brazilians will start the year only after
carnival, so here I am.
I'd like to share my list of things to do with existing Cyclone
Objetcs. Obviously there might be other issues with other objects
that would make them up to date with the current version of Max (Max
7). Nonetheless, this is what I find relevant, and I've been really
checking it through.
It's only about 11 objects, some has already been discussed here and
might have been fixed or in the process to be taken care of, forgive
me if so.
I have it attached and also as a link to a google doc
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L_dUNgznfhaZHPKMJ3jJ_p9uIXRVP6Rs9-3nXy2Qlk8/edit?usp=sharing
Next, I will get together a list of new objects I think should be
included, many of which I've already made as abstractions (kind of
to show how it works like I did with [teeth~], cause I really think
they should all be done as externals).
Cheers
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