[PD] Nettles. Was: Cyclone: List of Issues with existing objects by Alexandre Porres

[Ivica Bukvic]

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Ivica,
> The point is that with control objects one could make an object that
> maps "n" abstraction inlets to a single object.  That single object can
> just prepend incoming messages with an index.  Same with dispatching
> objects to "n" outlets.
>
> Doing it that way allows the user to create abstractions with variable
> xlets
> without relying at all on dynamic patching.  Thus the patches end up more
> maintainable and easier to reason about.
>

Perhaps but this is not a case of multiple nlets. Rather it is a way to
sidestep multiple nlets limitation that does not map 1:1 to the other
solution as it requires prepending (or providing data for all nlets in a
form of a list).


>
> You can't do the same with signal connections.  So you'd have to sprout
> as many outlets from your object as you have inlets, in which case it's
> nearly
> the same complexity as dynamic patching with [inlet~].
>

True.


>
> -Jonathan
>
>
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016 7:26 PM, Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I asked for something like Antoine's design back in 2007. I think it's a
> great idea, because it behaves like a signal inlet in compiled objects.
> On Feb 14, 2016 6:48 PM, "Ivica Bukvic" <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list <
> pd-list at lists.iem.at> wrote:
>
> Hi Antoine,
> We're talking about two different kinds of "dynamic" nlets.  Yours seems
> to
> set a value for the signal based on whether or not there is a connection
> to that
> inlet.  What I'm talking about is a future object that would elegantly
> handle
> the creation of a variable number of inlets(~) or outlets(~) inside an
> abstraction.
>
> I'm pressing Ivica specifically on variable signal nlets because there's
> no way
> to flexibly handle them.
>
>
> Why not? First of all, we need to agree that such an object would be
> mostly useful at instantiation time (e.g. a silly example would be an
> abstraction that mimics selector~ behavior) and in dynamic patching where
> after creation one would need to connect bunch of stuff to this object and
> ensure that inside the abstraction additional inlets actually do something.
> Second, let's assume the dynamic nlet creation object is the rightmost
> object (otherwise user is asking for potential problems if something is
> already connected to the second inlet and then suddenly first inlet grows a
> couple more inlets before the second one--even this could be potentially
> handled, with adequate changes inside the pd core, or in this case pd-l2ork
> core). Now, if new nlets are generated, they will not autoconnect to
> anything--this is user's responsibility likely through some sort of live or
> scripted patching at instantiation time which could be driven from the same
> argument. Once that is all taken into an account, the last thing is to
> consider:
>
> suspend dsp
> instantiate new object
> rebuild dsp graph (as you would with instantiation of any new signal object
> resume dsp
> redraw object and parent object on its parent canvases
>
> One lingering concern is that this would effectively make the abstraction
> dirty which could be either seen as a good thing or handled as something
> that does not trigger the dirty flag.
>
> Best,
>
> Ico
>
>
>
> -Jonathan
>
>
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016 5:34 PM, Antoine Rousseau <antoine at metalu.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> I've only partially followed all this discussion (not using Max myself),
> but maybe an object I wrote could help you building such abstractions :
>
> [moonlib/dinlet~] is an [inlet~] with an init float value (constant
> signal) as an argument.
> This default value is overloaded when a signal is connected to the inlet,
> but restored when the signal is disconnected. A float sent to it would
> overwrite the default constant value.
>
> Of course the init default value could be one of the abstraction's
> arguments ($xxx)...
>
> BUT :
>
> - there is a very little hack (which could be called a bugfix...) that has
> to be made to pd source (this change is written in comment in the source
> file of dinlet~). I should open a ticket for that in the sourceforge repo.
> The involved bug is mixing the different float values up when [dinlet~] is
> used together with normal [inlet]s.
>
> - I should add a missing feature in dinlet~, which would add an inlet to
> the [dinlet~] object itself, to allow changing the default value inside of
> the abstraction.
>
> If anyone think this would be helpful, I could do this (open a ticket and
> update moonlib about this missing inlet).
>
>
>
> 2016-02-14 20:29 GMT+01:00 Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list <
> pd-list at lists.iem.at>:
>
> > Why not simply have an inlet that can handle both inside an abstraction
> and route signal one way and number the other and then sprinkle that with
> dynamic nlet creation and you're done? Then you can simply abstract most
> cases.
>
> I read (and like) your spec on dynamic nlet creation, but I have a problem
> with section 2.1 Signals:
>
> "To handle the dynamic creation of signal inlets and their routing within
> the abstraction, the implementation must"
>
> It looks like the rest of the section is missing. :)
>
> -Jonathan
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016 1:51 PM, Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> ​I tried coding that once, but it seemed like it needed some big change in
> architecture. Technically it's only the main signal that accepts both
> messages and signals in this way, where you would want to route the
> message. Floats should almost always be promoted to signals.​
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Ivica Ico Bukvic <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
>
> Why not simply have an inlet that can handle both inside an abstraction
> and route signal one way and number the other and then sprinkle that with
> dynamic nlet creation and you're done? Then you can simply abstract most
> cases.
>
>
> On 2/14/2016 11:36 AM, Matt Barber wrote:
>
> [gt~] is a great example of something that could work as an abstraction,
> except for the pesky right inlet which should take a signal if there's no
> creation argument, but float otherwise.
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Ivica Bukvic <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
>
> What I am also trying to do eventually in pd-l2ork is weed out redundant
> objects and only keep the ones that do the said task the best while still
> supporting other objects' idiosyncrasies (if any). There is absolutely no
> reason to have multiple objects of the same kind. Ultimately, one could
> keep all the externals in the same folder and completely do away with all
> the declares, imports, and other things that make learning pd unnecessarily
> harder.
> --
> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
> Associate Professor
> Computer Music
> ICAT Senior Fellow
> Director -- DISIS, L2Ork
> Virginia Tech
> School of Performing Arts – 0141
> Blacksburg, VA 24061
> (540) 231-6139
> ico at vt.edu
> www.performingarts.vt.edu
> disis.icat.vt.edu
> l2ork.icat.vt.edu
> ico.bukvic.net
> On Feb 14, 2016 8:40 AM, "Fred Jan Kraan" <fjkraan at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> Hi Alexandre,
>
> guess some of it is in:
> http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/digaud/puredata/cyclone/cycloneToDo.html
>
>
> This list is also becoming a list of what has been done.
>
>
> As with _nettles_
>
> "try to resurrect as independent object library"
>
> Anyway, tell me if this gets includes on this file.
>
>
> Yes, the nettles-objects are part of the latest cyclone versions. They are
> part of the nettles library, which can be loaded with [declare]. Not all
> operating systems like the '<' and '>' in the object names and there is
> overlap with other library objects, so only loading them when needed is
> cleaner.
>
>
> cheers
>
> ps. count me in for help with the help files
>
>
> Great!
>
> Greetings,
>
> Fred Jan
>
>
> 2016-02-11 22:18 GMT-02:00 Alexandre Torres Porres <porres at gmail.com
> <mailto:porres at gmail.com>>:
>
>     Howdy, it's a known fact brazilians will start the year only after
>     carnival, so here I am.
>
>     I'd like to share my list of things to do with existing Cyclone
>     Objetcs. Obviously there might be other issues with other objects
>     that would make them up to date with the current version of Max (Max
>     7). Nonetheless, this is what I find relevant, and I've been really
>     checking it through.
>
>     It's only about 11 objects, some has already been discussed here and
>     might have been fixed or in the process to be taken care of, forgive
>     me if so.
>
>     I have it attached and also as a link to a google doc
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L_dUNgznfhaZHPKMJ3jJ_p9uIXRVP6Rs9-3nXy2Qlk8/edit?usp=sharing
>
>     Next, I will get together a list of new objects I think should be
>     included, many of which I've already made as abstractions (kind of
>     to show how it works like I did with [teeth~], cause I really think
>     they should all be done as externals).
>
>     Cheers
>
>
>
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