[PD] Does Pd have a "sound"?
cyrille henry
ch at chnry.net
Wed Feb 17 10:21:56 CET 2016
Le 17/02/2016 09:15, Matt Barber a écrit :
> They won't sound bad, necessarily; they just won't sound band limited. (Everything has its place.)
I think you just found the definitive answer on the question "does XXX sound better than YYY" : nothing sound bad, everything has it's place.
the answer to Matti original question is then: board threads claiming Pd (and Max) have a distinct (and not good) sound just have people who haven’t listened to good patches.
The other reaction I expected from my question was that pd vanilla have no BL oscillator, but lot's of abstractions are available. So which one to test?
The point here is that pd does not have sound, but all object does. (and back to previous ccl about good / bad patch)
One more thing :
As soon as someone provide a test that show that SC BL oscillator sound better than any pd BL oscillator, i will port SC BL algorithm to a pd external.
(and back to previous point and ccl)
and finally :
ok, sorry, i'll stop trolling that thread.
cheers
c
>
> On Feb 16, 2016 1:29 PM, "cyrille henry" <ch at chnry.net <mailto:ch at chnry.net>> wrote:
>
> if you want to compare the "sound" of SC and pd, please use band limited operator, or both will sound bad.
>
> cheers
> c
>
>
> Le 16/02/2016 19:16, Matt Barber a écrit :
>
> Sure, send 'em along. It's good for learning. I've heard so many times that "SC3 just sounds better," and I'm a skeptic overall. I have a few comparisons of my own to try soon.
>
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 12:53 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres <porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com> <mailto:porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> Cool, but you see, I suspected SuperCollider would do things such as clip the phase from phase 0.001 to 0.999 to prevent a harsh sawtooth, and also fade in (ramp) one block when a Synth starts.
>
> I feel it has many such details to make it sound "smoother" and nicer, it also seems to be a little quieter
>
> well, I kind like this, if I have other patches to compare, would you like to check? :)
>
> cheers
>
> 2016-02-16 14:53 GMT-02:00 Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com> <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com>>>:
>
> OK, here's the updated trials.pd with appropriate phase relationships. The pulse train in SC3 is control rate, so there might be a ramp between values that I'm missing. You can add it and see if it makes a difference.
>
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com> <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> The documentation is poor on both sides. I had to go into the source code to find out a couple of things.
>
> On Feb 16, 2016 9:45 AM, "Alexandre Torres Porres" <porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com> <mailto:porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> yeah, just checked them and they sound quite the same now ;) I wonder how I screwed up
>
> 2016-02-16 12:39 GMT-02:00 Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com> <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com>>>:
>
> Yeah, the phase relationships didn't match those in the SC3 code. I'll send the updated patch when I can get to my computer.
>
> On Feb 16, 2016 9:36 AM, "Alexandre Torres Porres" <porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com> <mailto:porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> > OK, I had to adjust the Pd patch a little to get it to match the SC3 code.
>
> why? what do you mean? was it wrong?
>
> 2016-02-16 6:07 GMT-02:00 Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com> <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com>>>:
>
> OK, I had to adjust the Pd patch a little to get it to match the SC3 code. I've made an A/B test: one is SC3 and the other is the matching Pd patch. See if you can tell which one is which, and why you answered the way you did. I went fast and made them 44.1kHz 16-bit; you'll have to live with it. :)
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:55 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres <porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com> <mailto:porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> correct code
>
> {VarSaw.ar(LFPulse.kr(1, 0, 0.3, 50, 50), 0, LFTri.ar(1, 0, 0.5, 0.5))!2}.play
>
> 2016-02-16 2:54 GMT-02:00 Alexandre Torres Porres <porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com> <mailto:porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com>>>:
>
> well, while we're at it, here's the patches for you to check and speculate :)
>
>
> SuperCollider Code;
> VarSaw.ar(LFPulse.kr(1, 0, 0.3, 50, 50), 0, LFTri.ar(1, 0, 0.5, 0.5))!2.play
>
> 2016-02-16 2:45 GMT-02:00 Matt Barber <brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com> <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com <mailto:brbrofsvl at gmail.com>>>:
>
> If there is difference between the sound of [triangle~] and VarSaw, it might actually be in the way phase is generated. The algorithms themselves are pretty much the same, but while VarSaw makes its own single-precision phase by simply subtracting 1 when an increment takes it past 1.0 (using a conditional on each sample), [triangle~] is a waveshaper that is fed phase. Pd's phasor is a little idiosyncratic, using a kind of bit-hacking to unwrap phase (the Höldrich method), which is supposed to perform a bit faster than a conditional, and it's inside not just [phasor~] but all the oscillator objects. If I remember correctly it can be prone to phase drift over time, but don't quote me on that.
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres <porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com> <mailto:porres at gmail.com <mailto:porres at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> I still believe differences between Pd and SC depend on other technical details than the ones presented, because similar objects like triangle~ and VarSaw will just sound quite differently, hence it may rely on subtleties inside the objects themselves. And I'm not talking about the "cultural" use which is something I believe makes quite a difference even in the Pd x Max world (when they both sound quite similar).
>
> cheers
>
> 2016-02-15 13:54 GMT-02:00 Andy Farnell <padawan12 at obiwannabe.co.uk <mailto:padawan12 at obiwannabe.co.uk> <mailto:padawan12 at obiwannabe.co.uk <mailto:padawan12 at obiwannabe.co.uk>>>:
>
>
> Good list of technical peculiarities Claude. For me, the "sound" is those
> quirks combined with how Chris describes a "cultural" or "contextual" use.
> I used to be great at knowing the sound of software or hardware sources
> and could spot Reaktor, or a Roland analogue in moments. But emulations
> got better and my ears got older, and maybe I began to care less about
> implementation and more about artistic intent. As Chris says,
> different tools tend to make you think and work in certain patterns,
> and I think it is this more than anything that constitutes a "sound".
>
> cheers
> Andy
>
>
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