[PD] distinction Pd lingo: abstraction, subpatch, subwindow

[Miller Puckette]

Trouble might be that there are other forms of subwindows (array, text) that
aren't patches.  So we'd need a term for 'a subwindow that's a patch'.  Maybe
'patch subwindow'?  But that's so close to 'subpatch' that it would make
everythig worse I think.

cheers
M

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 07:00:36PM +0200, Max wrote:
> May I propose subwindow as an umbrella term for both abstractions and
> subpatches?
> 
> Both terms should be either hyphenated or not. I am fine with not
> hyphenating them, but as a native German speaker I might have a bias towards
> sticking words together.
> 
> m.
> 
> On 12.08.2018 18:45, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > Well, (adopting for the moment subpatch/abstraction for the larger class and
> > one-off subpatch for the more specific one of a non-abstraction)...
> > 
> > I imagine that more things are true of subpatch/abstractions (they have
> > subwindows, inlets, outlets; and their run-time semantics are identical)
> > than are true of either subset alone (of which we may say that saving and
> > loading, and $-argument handling act differently).
> > 
> > So it's convenient to have some name or other for 'abstraction/subpatch'...
> > but if just calling this a 'subpatch' is confusing, perhaps we can think of
> > another term.
> > 
> > cheers
> > Miller
> > 
> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 02:23:15PM +0200, Max wrote:
> > > Hi Miller, thanks for chiming in.
> > > 
> > > On 12.08.2018 00:54, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > > > I think the best terminology is "sub-patch" for either an abstraction or
> > > > for a one-off subpatch.  (But then we probably need a better term for 'one-off';
> > > > maybe 'ad hoc'?
> > > 
> > > may I ask the rationale for it?
> > > 
> > > I believe a clearly defined and consistent terminology is very important for
> > > people trying to understand the manuals and helpfiles.
> > > The definitions in 2.7 and 2.7.1 are good, and I think the terms "subpatch"
> > > and "abstraction" are good too.
> > > ** subpatch ** is like a folder structure where things can be put into and
> > > stuffed away.
> > > ** abstraction ** is exactly what it sounds like. The term doesn't try to be
> > > what a "class" is in other languages, I think that's smart.
> > > 
> > > The established definitions give us a clear distinction between externals,
> > > abstractions and subpatches.
> > > 
> > > Now I just wish the documentation would be consistent with those established
> > > terms and not adding confusion by using the terms differently.
> > > 
> > > m.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > cheers
> > > > Miller
> > > > 
> > > > On Tue, Aug 07, 2018 at 01:44:18PM +0200, Max wrote:
> > > > > In the Pd documentation the word
> > > > > 
> > > > > abstraction is found 1859 times
> > > > > subpatch is found 2142 times
> > > > > sub-patch is found 45 times
> > > > > subwindow is found 24 times
> > > > > sub-window is found 1 time (that's in the html document, where it occurs 3
> > > > > times hyphenated and 1 time not hyphenated)
> > > > > 
> > > > > For reference: Definitions of the terms subpatch and abstraction can be
> > > > > found in paragraphs 2.7 and 2.7.1 of the documentation.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The terms however are consistently used inconsistent.
> > > > > 
> > > > > in 2.7.2 "Graph-on-parent subpatches" the illustration shows an abstraction,
> > > > > not a subpatch. The text first talks about an abstraction and then
> > > > > continues: "When the sub-patch is closed, all controls in it appear on the
> > > > > object instead; so the number box in the sub-patch in the example above is
> > > > > the same one as you see in the box. "
> > > > > 
> > > > > Even weirder, there is a definition of the term "abstraction" in the
> > > > > clone-help.pd which goes as follows: "a patch loaded as an object in another
> > > > > patch"
> > > > > but in the same patch the clones abstraction is named "clone-subpatch.pd".
> > > > > 
> > > > > Is there something I am missing here?
> > > > > 
> > > > > m.
> > > > > 
> > > > > On 05.08.2018 12:01, Max wrote:
> > > > > > OK, let me try myself, please correct me:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > An abstraction is a Pd patch which is used like an object in another Pd
> > > > > > patch.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > A subpatch is saved within the main patch and is constructed with [pd
> > > > > > {name}]. Multiple subpatches with the same name may coexist.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Subwindow is the umbrella term for both of the prior terms.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If someone can confirm that the above definition is true, I will make
> > > > > > some pull requests to the documentation/ help files since it isn't
> > > > > > consistent. The pd~-help for example.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On 04.08.2018 14:05, Max wrote:
> > > > > > > In the helpfiles and on this list the three words
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 'abstraction'
> > > > > > > 'subpatch' or 'sub-patch'
> > > > > > > 'subwindow'
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > are used. could someone provide a definition of those? I suspect
> > > > > > > they aren't used in a consistent way throughout the documentation.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > m.
> > > > > > > 
> > > 
> > 
>